ECT For Those who Think MAD to be False: What is the Gospel?

[DAN P]

Might I suggest you're looking at Jesus' words before his death, burial and resurrection. At this point he is looking forward to the establishment of his church. Once he has made the sacrifice for us all, then he adds something to believe.
Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

He instructs the apostles on how to make people Christians.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

That is exactly what the apostles do, even Paul.


As for them being saved, how many people does the scriptures tell us were saved before Jesus' D,B&R?
Here is what scripture tells us after:
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls....47...And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Hi and Jerry showed you 2 verbs in the Present tense which means CONTINUOS ACTION and then you bring in Mark 16:16 and it has 7 verbs and 2 of those verbs are in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and this verse will be in operation DURING the Great Tribulation and that is why the FUTURE TENSE is used !!

In other words Israel has been set aside and we are in the DISPENSATION of the Grace of God and when we are TAKEN to be with the Lord , then will begin Jacobs TROUBLE !!

dan p

 

[musterion]

So you do not believe the Lord Jesus when He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish!

Sad.

He's Catholic. Don't know if you were here when he admitted that.

 

[turbosixx]

Now let us look at this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

When we consider the parallel passage in Matt. 28, it’s obvious this is how one becomes a Christian. Are you going to base it being optional on the unrelated passage you use?

Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection is the foundation of Christianity. Doesn’t it make sense that we would partake in baptism which is in the likeness of his sacrifice to become his followers, Rom. 6? Then as Christians we continue to remember that sacrifice when we partake of communion.

It appears Peter believed it to be a requirement, he orders them to be baptized “in the name of Jesus”.
Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

Paul in Acts 19 doesn’t give the Holy Spirit without first properly baptizing them “in the name of Jesus”.

Nowhere do we see any passages that say baptism is being done away with. 1 Cor. 1:17 is used out of context. If you look at the context, this would be the perfect occasion for Paul to explain that baptism is nothing but he doesn’t.

1 Cor. 12:13 is used incorrectly as well to promote ONE baptism that is supposedly spiritual.
Here we see people being baptized and added.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were water baptized and who did the adding? The Spirit. That is the meaning of 1 Cor. 12:13.

 

[Danoh]

He's Catholic. Don't know if you were here when he admitted that.

That would explain his much use of reasoning INTO the various passages.

Ol Augustine all over again.

"The wisdom of men."

Turbo is like that also. Whether he believes he is RC or not; he too uses their same Augustinian reasoning INTO a thing.

dodge, less so.

His appears more guessing at than reasoning into.

I continue to find each TOLer's approach not only ever fascinating, but a lesson in the need to often reflect on where I may have allowed myself to fall prey to such approaches from within myself.

It is why I do not allow myself to play sides.

Only being objective when dealing with any side allows seeing oneself as well; where one might also be guilty of their error.

Those three fingers ever poiting back at one - there is ever much there to learn from - about oneself.

In this "opposition is good for ya."

 

[turbosixx]

At least two?

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Yep, and others but why not thousands as we see on Pentecost. Isn't Jn. 3:16 all we need?

 

[turbosixx]

the Grace of God

What do you believe is the Grace of God?

 

[Danoh]

Yep, and others but why not thousands as we see on Pentecost. Isn't Jn. 3:16 all we need?

Nope. Those two passages are referring to a salvation or deliverence from what those two passages are relating those individuals had been burdened by.

Try comparing verse with verse for intended sense over your obvious "Greeks seek after wisdom" - the reasoning of men INTO a thing.

 

[turbosixx]

Nope. Those two passages are referring to a salvation or deliverence from what those two passages are relating those individuals had been burdened by.

I'm not going to disagree. The only one I feel for sure was saved before the D,B&R would be the thief on the cross.

 

[Nang]

I'm not going to disagree. The only one I feel for sure was saved before the D,B&R would be the thief on the cross.

Abraham was not saved by the grace of God?

 

[turbosixx]

Abraham was not saved by the grace of God?

Everyone who ever lived and is saved is saved by the Grace of God.

 

[Nang]

Everyone who ever lived and is saved is saved by the Grace of God.

Indeed, but you stated you believed only the thief on the cross was saved prior to the death of Jesus Christ.

 

[turbosixx]

Indeed, but you stated you believed only the thief on the cross was saved prior to the death of Jesus Christ.

My point is after Jesus' D,B &R we are told thousands were saved.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.....47.. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

The same apostles went out and preached before the D,B&R but how many were saved?
If Jn. 3:16 is all we need, shouldn't thousands have been saved before? We are clearly told people believed.
Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I categorically deny that is all that Paul and Silas told the man.[\quote]

The answer given by Paul in the following verse is either true or it is not true.

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

What is answered here is true. Since that contradicts your silly man made doctrine you refuse to believe what Paul answered there. You insist that faith alone saves no one. Let us look at this verse:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).

According to your man made ideas the gospel is not the power of salvation to everyone who believes.

Pitiful!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I categorically deny that is all that Paul and Silas told the man.

The answer given by Paul in the following verse is either true or it is not true.

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

What is answered here is true. Since that contradicts your silly man made doctrine you refuse to believe what Paul answered there. You insist that faith alone saves no one. Let us look at this verse:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).

According to youman made ideas the gospel is not the power of salvation toeveryone who believes.

Pitiful!

 

[Nang]

My point is after Jesus' D,B &R we are told thousands were saved.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.....47.. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

The same apostles went out and preached before the D,B&R but how many were saved?
If Jn. 3:16 is all we need, shouldn't thousands have been saved before? We are clearly told people believed.
Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

All who believed Jesus' proclamation that the kingdom promises were at hand, and that all that had been " . . written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms . ." (Luke 24:44)) concerned His Person and had been fulfilled, were undoubtedly saved. (Luke 24:45-49)

A comparison of counts, before and after the cross, is irrelevant, IMO.

 

[patrick jane]

Nobody can beat Jerry Shugart in a debate !!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I agree, baptize believers. That’s what all the apostles did including Paul.

In the present dispensation there is but ONE BAPTISM (Eph.4:5). And it is obvious to anyone that the following baptism is that ONE BAPTISM:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

To insist that water baptism is the ONE BAPTISM for today to the exclusion of the baptism mentioned in this verse proves that you do not understand spiritual truths.

 

[turbosixx]

A comparison of counts, before and after the cross, is irrelevant, IMO.

IMO I believe they are different.

Matt. 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Heb. 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[Danoh]

I'm not going to disagree. The only one I feel for sure was saved before the D,B&R would be the thief on the cross.

Not that I agree with the balance of your words hereinabove - but I commend you for having so easily owned your above error.

Only that kind of willingness will allow the seeing of what is often not seen due to pride.

Pride that over time, begins to wax to where one is no longer able to own an error, but is ever rationalizing one's ever endless nonsense, as a result.

It's a great quality. Hold on to it.

You'll end up holding to a Mid-Acts Perspective sooner or later.

Whether here or in Glory one day.

Being willing to own a thing I was off on was how I myself came to see the MAP (Mid-Acts Perspective) in Scripture - just over a year before I was even aware there were people out there who held to same.

Result?

I've been a headache as to objectivity on one thing or another to some of my own...to this very day :chuckle:

 

[turbosixx]

In the present dispensation there is but ONE BAPTISM (Eph.4:5). And it is obvious to anyone that the following baptism is that ONE BAPTISM:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

To insist that water baptism is the ONE BAPTISM for today to the exclusion of the baptism mentioned in this verse proves that you do not understand spiritual truths.

A single verse is you're bases for the extinction of water baptism?

Is Paul talking about the ONE baptism here?
1 Cor. 1:16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas;

Or here?
1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;