For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[Tambora]

deleted by Tambora

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Well, Jerry, "being with Christ" does not have to mean that you are physically in the same physical location.

I mean, we are with Christ now. We are in Him. He is in us.
And yet we are to join with Him in the sky.
Why join Him if we are already with Him?
Because being with Him does not mean that we are in the same physical location.

Or, to put another way .....
Jesus left the earth physically, and yet, we that are still here on earth physically are still said to be with Christ.

Yes, "him that filleth all in all"

In eternity, those on earth, those in the City, and we in heaven will be in Christ and with Christ. Nothing can separate us.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Or, to put another way .....
Jesus left the earth physically, and yet, we that are still here on earth physically are still said to be with Christ.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).

The first part of the verse is speaking about being in the vicinity of the actual presence of the Lord Jesus.

And the Greek word translated "so" means:

"By virtue of its native demonstrative force it refers to what precedes" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

So when Paul writes that we will forever be with the Lord that can only be understood as being forever in the vicinity of the presence of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Danoh]

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).

The first part of the verse is speaking about being in the vicinity of the actual presence of the Lord Jesus.

And the Greek word translated "so" means:

"By virtue of its native demonstrative force it refers to what precedes" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

So when Paul writes that we will forever be with the Lord that can only be understood as being forever in the vicinity of the presence of the Lord Jesus.

This thread is "For Sincere Inquisitors Only."

You have yet proven that is your heart any different to this very day, from five years ago on here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58704&page=52

 

[Tambora]

deleted by Tambora

 

[Danoh]

Because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are there.

Matthew 8 KJV
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.​

Since they have already died physically & buried physically, are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob there in resurrected bodies?

Honestly, I do not care for quizzing others unless it is meant to help someone in error to consider looking something they might not have considered. And even then, that is no guarantee they will consider it from where one is doing so.

Just get to the point Tam.

And no, they are Holodeck characters on the Star Trek Voyager, lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So if I were to ask you if you are with Christ now, your answer would be "no" because you are not yet in the same physical location?

Good job of just ignoring what I said about 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Obviously you cannot prove what I said is in error.

All you did is to ignore what I said about the verse in the hope that no one will notice that you did not even attempt to prove what I said is in error!

So now I will give you something else to ignore. The jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Despite this fact those in the Neo-MAD community insist that the Jews could not be saved apart from works. But that is impossible because since salvation is on the principle of grace then it cannot be said that it is of works:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

You are not one of those who say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works, are you?

 

[Danoh]

Good job of just ignoring what I said about 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Obviously you cannot prove what I said is in error.

All you did is to ignore what I said about the verse in the hope that no one will notice that you did not even attempt to prove what I said is in error!

So now I will give you something else to ignore. The jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Despite this fact those in the Neo-MAD community insist that the Jews could not be saved apart from works. But that is impossible because since salvation is on the principle of grace then it cannot be said that it is of works:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

You are not one of those who say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works, are you?

This thread is "For Sincere Inquisitors Only."

As of the above, you have yet proven that your heart is any different to this very day, from what it was five years ago on here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...=58704&page=52

 

[Tambora]

deleted by Tambora

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I picked a point that you were expressing. A point about whether those in the BOC have to be in the same physical location in order for us to be "with" Christ.

Yes, but you just ignored what I said about that. I gave evidence that you were wrong about what the verse is saying. Now you can have another chance to answer it if you want:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).

The first part of the verse is speaking about being in the vicinity of the actual presence of the Lord Jesus.

And the Greek word translated "so" means:

"By virtue of its native demonstrative force it refers to what precedes" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).​

So when Paul writes that we will forever be with the Lord that can only be understood as being forever in the vicinity of the presence of the Lord Jesus.

If I am wrong about the meaning of the Greek word translated "so" then provide evidence which proves it.

If I were to ask you if you are with Christ now, your answer would be "no" because you are not yet in the same physical location?

The evidence which I presented can only mean that those in the Body will indeed be forever in the vinicity of the presence of the Lord Jesus and you have not even attempted to address the point which I made about the meaning of the Greek word translated "so."

You quoted only one question of my post in your above quote. You did not answer the one question of mine that you quoted!

That is because you just IGNORED the point I made about the Greek word translated "so." And my point absolutely proved that your idea is wrong and I am sure that is why you just ignored it.

Your fits about folks not answering you "because they have no answer" is outdated and tiresome, not to mention pure assumption on your part.

Spare me the lectures!!!

If you can answer my point concerning the meaning of "so" in the verse then let's hear it. If you have no answer then just admit it but please do not subject me to your excuses as to why you will not answer it.

 

[Tambora]

deleted by Tambora

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What worries me is that you don't think we are with Christ now.

I never said that! If you think that I did then quote me.

Trust me, Jerry, I will get to the Greek and show that the verse does not HAVE TO be about a physical location.

Why didn't you do it in your last post, you know, the post where you misrepresented my beliefs?

 

[Tambora]

Conditional timing

God also later said, through Paul, that the promises were irrevocable.

For the gifts (to Israel, in context) and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 1:29​

@chickenman

A little correction as a number was left off.

This should be Romans 11:29 instead of Romans 1:29.

 

[Tambora]

:wave2: Howdy, bro!
If Randy doesn't mind, I'll take a stab at this.

Here's the initial promise to Abraham:

Genesis 12
1: Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Immediately, we can see that there are two groups involved. A "great nation" and "the families (or nations) of the earth".

Fast forward a little.

Genesis 15
4: And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5: And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

So, Abraham, a heathen, yet uncircumcised, was counted as righteous by faith alone. No action was required in believing God's promise.

Moving ahead, God changes his name from Abram to Abraham and...

Genesis 17
10: This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11: And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12: And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

14: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

The covenant of circumcision is given to Abraham, and an action IS required to remain in this covenant.

So, within the umbrella of the Abrahamic covenant, Gen 12:1-3, God is now beginning to set apart the "great nation" within that covenant.

From Gen 17 forward, it's all about the circumcision. It's all about getting that "great nation" through whom the nations of the earth would be blessed.

Well, the Messiah comes to the circumcision. The majority reject him, he's crucified, buried, risen, and ascended. Israel continues to reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit in early Acts, Israel is fallen.

But, God raises up another apostle with a message that was hidden in the scriptures concerning Gentiles, the uncircumcision.

Gal 3
5: He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6: Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9: So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

So, instead of blessing the nations of the world through the rise of that "great nation", they are blessed through the fall of that "great nation"...and, he can do it by their faith alone.

During Acts, you have two groups. Both are the children of Abraham, and both fall under the umbrella of the Abrahamic covenant. One group, a nation, are children of Abraham (in circumcision). The other group, a Body, are children of Abraham (in uncircumcision). The covenant of circumcision requires action, works. No action is required of the uncircumcision.

You can follow these two groups through the book of Acts. You can see the circumcision being diminished, you can see the uncircumcision growing.

The two groups are clearly seen here,

Gal 2
7: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8: (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )
9: And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

In Galatians, Paul contrasts the two covenants which spawn these two groups. He contrasts the Abrahamic covenant with the Mosaic (the circumcision). The promise is unto both, the Jerusalem above which is free, is the mother of them all.

Hope this helps...

Worth a repeat.

 

[Bright Raven]

This has got to be the best teaching about MAD on the site.

 

[Tambora]

This has got to be the best teaching about MAD on the site.

Amen.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:chicken:

 

[Danoh]

This has got to be the best teaching about MAD on the site.

I have known MANY MADs over the years.

The result of my own research over the years into the origins of MAD as a teaching.

I came to know what MANY MADs and their Pastors hold to on such things, and that they spread via various outreach ministries, as a result.

MOST of the MANY Mid-Acts based assemblies spread throughout the U.S. and beyond do NOT hold that ANY part of the Mystery was hidden in the OT.

Neither do ANY of their outreach assemblies.

NEITHER do ANY of the three or four schools dedicated to training Mid-Acts Based Pastors and Teachers.

The founder of the teaching asserted in the post you are responding to (the late E. C. Moore, rip) was proven an erroneous hybrid, or mix of Acts 9 with Acts 28 Dispensationalism, by the sharpest minds within MAD, at a conference, over forty years ago.

Only in the last few years has said error made a resurgence, and the pattern in study approach is the same in every assertion I and other, actual MADs have read or heard taught by such: a consistent pattern of having deviated from the overall flow of thought of Luke's and or Paul's narrative.

Oddly, the erroneous assertion made by such about Galatians 3: 8, is the exact same error that the poster Interplanner, was ever asserting about Eph. 3:6.

Error is like that: ever unable to recognize itself in the error of another.

Nevertheless, Romans 5:6-9.

 

[Idolater]

:wave2: Hey Randy...glad you decided to do this thread! I've been bouncing little tidbits off of you and STP for a while now but it'll be good to focus on this for a while...

The first question that springs to mind:

In talking to STP recently, he helped me understand the distinction between the gospel of the Kingdom and the gospel of uncircumcision. (And I think it's clear that they are two different gospels...on that much I'm right there with you guys...)

It seems to me, though, that Paul indicates that Abraham, in particular and among others, was accounted righteous on the basis of his faith, just as we are. Now clearly his faith took different form than ours must since he was looking forward to Messiah while we get to look both ways. The question, though, has to do with the requirement for salvation during what I recognize as the dispensation of the Promise, or the time of the Abrahamic covenant.

It seems that you guys see the gospel of the Kingdom as a kind of development on the Abrahamic covenant, being the promise of earthly reward in exchange (at least in part) for obedience. Yet Paul seems to make a point of the fact that it was Abraham's faith that saved him, and not his works.

I'll leave James out for now since, if I understand correctly, in writing to the twelve tribes, he is preaching the gospel of the Kingdom...

So according to MAD, prior to and following this, sort of "parenthetical" dispensation of the gospel of uncircumcision, were works once a necessary ingredient for the salvation of men and will they be again?

Thanks Randy!

Acts 26:21 KJV For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Amen!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Acts 26:21 KJV For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Amen!

The words you quoted of Paul were spoken in defense of the charges against him that he was a mover of sedition among the Jews (Acts 24:5). Paul said that what he was teaching to the Jews came straight from the OT and therefore he did nothing wrong.

The gospel Paul preached to the Jews was based on what the prophets foretold (Ro.1:1-2) while the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles was bases on truths that had not been revealed and had been kept secret:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor.2:7-8).​