The more important issue is what's right; not who.
But I've noticed that has fallen on deaf ears where you are concerned.
For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
- Thread starter chickenman
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The more important issue is what's right; not who.
But I've noticed that has fallen on deaf ears where you are concerned.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is what I am trying to clear up.
You said:
It seems as if you are saying that the Jews who lived at the time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth were saved by faith alone.
Is that correct?
I certainly would not want to misrepresent your beliefs.
I think it would be fair of you to state your case since Danoh has made no attempt to rebut you.
You are violating the intent of this thread - sincere inquiry.
Am I? If so I will refrain.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course all Danoh is good far is slinging mud.
When asked to actually address the meaning of verses all he does is run and hide.
He has such strong beliefs on the teaching within the Neo-MAD community but when it comes time to actually back up his beliefs with the Scriptures he comes up empty handed.
For example, those within that community assert that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. And that is why they refuse to even attempt to address these words here:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
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That's not true, Jerry.
That's not true either, Jerry.
And that's not true either, Jerry.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us see if he will actually respond to what I said to him in my last post to him, #1562.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That wasn't your last post to him, silly boy. :chuckle:
So why would he? You cut that line of communication from what I saw. Did you do it for such a time as this?
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STP, I thought I would respond to your above point, here on this thread "For Sincere Inquisitors Only" given its rule against hecklers, and accusers of Mid-Acts brethren, even by our own, etc., as related in the OP of this thread, given the intent of this thread.
Hopefully, Jerry will keep his word, and ignore my posts, as I have no interest in dealing with him on any of these issues whether yea, or nay, where he is concerned.
Anyway, what do you make of Paul's use of that phrase in these passages?
The following be a list of his direct reference; it does not include many of his indirect references to same.
Acts 20:
17. And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
27. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1 Corinthians 1:
1. Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
1 Corinthians 3:
6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth
1 Corinthians 4:
15. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
17. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every
where in every church.
2 Timothy 2:
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1 Corinthians 11:
22. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
2 Corinthians 1:
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2. Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:
1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2. Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
1 Timothy 3:
4. One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1 Timothy 3:
15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Though I did not touch on other uses of the phrase not penned by Paul; it appears to me that the phrase [an I know we differ on this] is similar to the phrases "the gospel of God" and "the gospel of Christ" and their variations - like them, the phrase "the church of God" can refer to either group.
What determines which group it is referring to being each's distinct characteristics.
For example, in the following, there is a reference to both groups...
Body - 2 Thessalonians 1:
4. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Kingdom - 1 Thessalonians 2:
14. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
There is even a principle in those two passages as to what they were followers of the Judean churches of God in - in their like sufferings before their own country men.
Jerry should you repeat the following disregard once more [post #778 on the link below says it all], I will report you to the moderators.
I ask that others on here who have had it with your baiting, also report you:
http://www.theologyonline.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58704&page=52
I ask that others on here who have had it with your baiting, also report you:
http://www.theologyonline.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58704&page=52
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul Sadler, the President of the Berean Bible Society and one of the chief spokesmen in the Neo-MAD community, teaches that those who received the Jewish epistles were not members of the Body of Christ. He gives the following criteria for determining exactly who belongs to the Body of Christ and who doesn't:
With that in mind let us examine the life of Apollos to see if Sadler is correct when he limits those who are in the Body of Christ to those who were saved after Paul's conversion. At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":
But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":
Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:
Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking about the Jews and Gentiles being made "one" and reconciled in one Body. It is inconceivable that Paul would say that both he and Apollos were "one" but yet they were not "one" because Paul belongs within the Body of Christ but Apollos did not.
Despite these facts Sadler teaches that because Apollos was saved prior to the time when Paul was converted then he could not have been a member of the Body of Christ.
Where do those in the Neo-MAD camp come up with such foolishness?
"The company of saints who make up Christ's Body consists of 'only' those who are saved from the conversation of the Apostle Paul until the sound of the trump at the Rapture (I Tim. 1:15,16; I Cor. 12:27; I Thess. 4:13-18). 'Only those who have been saved under the terms of salvation found in Paul's epistles make up the true church of this dispensation (I Cor.15:1-4)'" (Paul M. Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Germantown, WI: Worzalla Publishing, 1993], 103).
With that in mind let us examine the life of Apollos to see if Sadler is correct when he limits those who are in the Body of Christ to those who were saved after Paul's conversion. At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":
"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).
But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).
Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one." In the following passage Paul speaks about that oneness:
"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph. 2:14-16).
Here we see the Apostle Paul speaking about the Jews and Gentiles being made "one" and reconciled in one Body. It is inconceivable that Paul would say that both he and Apollos were "one" but yet they were not "one" because Paul belongs within the Body of Christ but Apollos did not.
Despite these facts Sadler teaches that because Apollos was saved prior to the time when Paul was converted then he could not have been a member of the Body of Christ.
Where do those in the Neo-MAD camp come up with such foolishness?
Consider yourself reported, Jerry.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Could it be that Apollos is an example of this? One to whom the way of God was preached "more perfectly"?
Acts 18:24-28 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Acts 18:27-28 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Acts 18:27-28 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
This "more perfectly" and this "all knowledge" would fit members of the body rather than the first group.
Romans 15:13-15
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
Danoh,
Millennial kingdom, or not?
Matthew 8 KJV
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Millennial kingdom, or not?
I admit Tam, I'm not secure in the Kingdom particulars but, perhaps we could all, learn from each other? You're one of my TOL favs.
I think we can all learn too.
Since this thread is a bit more restrictive with opposition, it will have less inputs of distraction allowed.
If we get enough input from sincere study buddies, we can eventually move relevant posts to a new thread just about the millennial kingdom.
If there's not much interest, no need to start a new thread.
We'll see how it goes!
Millennial. Why do you ask?
Because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are there.
Matthew 8 KJV
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
(11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Since they have already died physically & buried physically, are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob there in resurrected bodies?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You do know that the members of the Body of Christ will be a part of the earthly kingdom, don't you?:
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).
The members of the Body of Christ will meet the Lord in the air and from that time onward they will always be with the Lord. That means that when He returns to the earth to establish His earthly kingdom those in the Body will be with Him and will remain with Him during the time of that kingdom.