For everyone who is concerned about my eternal soul

patrick jane

patrick jane

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Banned
GreatBigBore said:
Hi everyone, I didn't plan on doing this, but when I posted a question in the Religion forum I got a bunch of people wanting to argue with me about my eternal soul, about whether I have read the bible properly, whether I have the right spirit, etc. I really didn't feel like discussing it in that thread, and I really didn't feel like discussing it at all, but since so many people are asking about me personally rather than having something helpful to say in answer to my question, here goes.

I personally spit in that god's face.
Click to expand...


I'm not concerned for your soul, it's your baby.
 
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D

djhow

New member
No man has seen God, even Jesus told the Pharisees that they did not know Jehovah and if they wanted to see Jehovah to look to him. The image of God is a dangerous and illusory space in our imagination and is why all religions who have a visual or sensory framework of God all understand them to be a face of God and none of them are actually God. The Bible is not God so faith in the Bible will not save you, Imaginary constructs are not God and faith in them will not save you. Only God can save and that's the mystery that confounds the wise
 
njspolk

njspolk

New member
GreatBigBore said:
Hi everyone, I didn't plan on doing this, but when I posted a question in the Religion forum I got a bunch of people wanting to argue with me about my eternal soul, about whether I have read the bible properly, whether I have the right spirit, etc. I really didn't feel like discussing it in that thread, and I really didn't feel like discussing it at all, but since so many people are asking about me personally rather than having something helpful to say in answer to my question, here goes.

I have carefully read and carefully studied the bible for 35 years, ever since I was 13 years old and was told by my abusive stepfather that I will burn in agony in real fire for eternity. I believed it, and when I read the bible, I believed it even more. After many years of terror, when I was about 30 years old, a still, small voice came to me and said, "Torture is wrong."

I have studied science, history, literature, archaeology, biblical scholarship, and many other very nerdy related scholarly fields my whole life, because I am a total nerd. I can point to many, many reasons why I find the bible to be implausible from many, many scholarly vantage points. But none of that matters to me on a personal level, because all I need to know is one thing, and I discovered it independent of all my decades of research: Torture is wrong.

The only way to have an argument about something is to find some common philosophical ground. If you think torture can ever be morally justified, then you and I simply have nothing to talk about. I will not discuss it. I openly and freely admit that I am absolutely closed to any discussion on the matter.

Call me religious. Here's my creed.

A god that wants people to sing joyfully to it while other people burn in agony for eternity is a demon that does not know the first thing about compassion or morality.

A god that can't stomach fire torture but cowardly falls back on some lesser horror like eternal despair is a demon that does not know the first thing about compassion or morality.

The Atheistic Good News is that even without supernatural help, almost every atheist in the world would BEG God to release you, or any human, or any living thing, from such horror. We would never sing. We could never sing, even if we wanted to, because we would be instinctively compelled to beg for your release. Even without supernatural help, just at an animal-instinct level, we love all living things more than eternal-suffering people love their fellow humans.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I can so unabashedly love a god's people more than they love me, I personally spit in that god's face.
Click to expand...

Don't be too discouraged. It's easy to when most Christians you see preach the "Turn or Burn" gospel. Not all Christians assent to that :)


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
practical concerns for sensible folks.......

practical concerns for sensible folks.......

djhow said:
No man has seen God, even Jesus told the Pharisees that they did not know Jehovah and if they wanted to see Jehovah to look to him. The image of God is a dangerous and illusory space in our imagination and is why all religions who have a visual or sensory framework of God all understand them to be a face of God and none of them are actually God. The Bible is not God so faith in the Bible will not save you, Imaginary constructs are not God and faith in them will not save you. Only God can save and that's the mystery that confounds the wise
Click to expand...

Indeed,....only love saves, since love is the fulfillment of life's purpose of being. Fear and torment are antithetical to love.

My thoughts challenging ECT shared earlier here and elsewhere hold. I've never gone so far to describe 'spitting in any said god's face'....but I understand the poster's feelings about 'torture' being spouting as God's presumed 'justice' as cruel and heinous as that might seem. Its a caricature of 'God' that can be challenged and rejected on principle alone, for starters, to say nothing of its immorality.


:)
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
njspolk said:
Don't be too discouraged. It's easy to when most Christians you see preach the "Turn or Burn" gospel. Not all Christians assent to that :)


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Click to expand...

The problem is the ole "turn or burn" message is laden with fear and threats. True, not all 'christians' assent to this approach or even this kind of gospel-preaching, call it what you will.
 
D

djhow

New member
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth and there have been many truths revealed to the world about the world and weirdly enough it's Christians who fear the Truth. The fact that something can disturb your faith can not be of God because God is not disturbed so why should we. Didn't Jesus say Do Not Fear for I have overcome the world. If that doesn't give you peace then you don't believe it in your heart.
 
T

Timotheos

New member
GreatBigBore said:
Hi everyone, I didn't plan on doing this, but when I posted a question in the Religion forum I got a bunch of people wanting to argue with me about my eternal soul, about whether I have read the bible properly, whether I have the right spirit, etc. I really didn't feel like discussing it in that thread, and I really didn't feel like discussing it at all, but since so many people are asking about me personally rather than having something helpful to say in answer to my question, here goes.

I have carefully read and carefully studied the bible for 35 years, ever since I was 13 years old and was told by my abusive stepfather that I will burn in agony in real fire for eternity. I believed it, and when I read the bible, I believed it even more. After many years of terror, when I was about 30 years old, a still, small voice came to me and said, "Torture is wrong."
Click to expand...
I agree with you that "Torture is wrong". But the person who told you that the Bible says that God will torture people in hell, or have them eternally tormented is wrong. The Bible never once says that bad people go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive for all eternity while they are dead. The Bible says that people die, and I'm sure the fact that people die doesn't come as a big shock to you. But the Bible also says that we can be resurrected from death and given eternal life. This is a free gift, which is available to anyone. The Bible says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." We can gave eternal life instead of perishing. Nothing is said about eternally torturing anyone because they made the wrong choice or had the wrong religion. Jesus rescues us from DEATH, not eternal living torture in hell. He offers us eternal life, we get to live forever, because of Jesus Christ.

May God richly bless you forever.
Tim
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Angel4Truth said:
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
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The above refers to a divine reverence or respect which engenders wisdom, the awe of worship. I don't see the concept of eternal hellfire and fearing such a place as being included.....a doctrine later introduced in pagan mythologies.
 
Clete

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
GreatBigBore said:
Hi everyone, I didn't plan on doing this, but when I posted a question in the Religion forum I got a bunch of people wanting to argue with me about my eternal soul, about whether I have read the bible properly, whether I have the right spirit, etc. I really didn't feel like discussing it in that thread, and I really didn't feel like discussing it at all, but since so many people are asking about me personally rather than having something helpful to say in answer to my question, here goes.

I have carefully read and carefully studied the bible for 35 years, ever since I was 13 years old and was told by my abusive stepfather that I will burn in agony in real fire for eternity. I believed it, and when I read the bible, I believed it even more. After many years of terror, when I was about 30 years old, a still, small voice came to me and said, "Torture is wrong."

I have studied science, history, literature, archaeology, biblical scholarship, and many other very nerdy related scholarly fields my whole life, because I am a total nerd. I can point to many, many reasons why I find the bible to be implausible from many, many scholarly vantage points. But none of that matters to me on a personal level, because all I need to know is one thing, and I discovered it independent of all my decades of research: Torture is wrong.

The only way to have an argument about something is to find some common philosophical ground. If you think torture can ever be morally justified, then you and I simply have nothing to talk about. I will not discuss it. I openly and freely admit that I am absolutely closed to any discussion on the matter.

Call me religious. Here's my creed.

A god that wants people to sing joyfully to it while other people burn in agony for eternity is a demon that does not know the first thing about compassion or morality.

A god that can't stomach fire torture but cowardly falls back on some lesser horror like eternal despair is a demon that does not know the first thing about compassion or morality.

The Atheistic Good News is that even without supernatural help, almost every atheist in the world would BEG God to release you, or any human, or any living thing, from such horror. We would never sing. We could never sing, even if we wanted to, because we would be instinctively compelled to beg for your release. Even without supernatural help, just at an animal-instinct level, we love all living things more than eternal-suffering people love their fellow humans.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I can so unabashedly love a god's people more than they love me, I personally spit in that god's face.
Click to expand...

So your father is absent and the man who raised you tortured you and you clearly hate him for it. You think God tortures people and therefore hate Him as well. You essentially think that life with God would be something akin to what life was like with your step-father. This is a normal psychological condition in children who's relationship with their father figure is dysfunctional/abusive. Your problem is that you think your psychological issue is a biblical/doctrinal issue.

First of all, whether Hell is literal fire is very debatable and so I know you haven't actually rejected God because of that doctrine. You couldn't prove literal Hell fire if your life depended on it and you'd know that if half of the bible study you claim to have done had actually taken place. People who don't like the idea of literal Hell fire don't turn atheist, they simply drop the notion of literal Hell fire.

You have emotional issues that need dealt with. You'll never make one inch of real progress toward anything that resembles the truth until you do. The glimmer of hope lies in the fact that you have some sense of justice. Ostensibly, going so far as to reject God Himself on the basis of your sense of justice. What you'll find out is that it'll be your own understanding of justice that condemns you when you find yourself before the God of Justice. You are, in effect, throwing yourself into the Lake of Fire which God only wants to save you from. It isn't the God of Justice that you have a problem with, your problem lies with the man who raised you.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
H

hoghead1

New member
I heartedly agree, Tim. God is a loving God; and when you love others, you do not seek to coerce them with threats of terrible punishments.
 
H

hoghead1

New member
I beg to disagree. I view God as a God of love. That means God dos not threaten us or coerce us with horrible punishments.
 
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