First, an apology to GFR7. Then, about growing a TOL-grade thick skin.

[patrick jane]

Two things: No, and no. Let's stick to TOL, at the very least, and not go completely off the rails.

Yeeeeeeeeeeesh.

You're not really addressing the issue Anna raised. You guys consistently hate objections and concerns like hers. This isn't the first time there's been such a thread on TOL, won't be the last, and it'll go like this:

a) utter denial by Christians or an attempt to change the subject (your tactic)
b) soft pedaling by nice Christians (Town Heretic's gambit)
c) savage attacks that prove Anna's point (any second now)
d) a wistful follow up from the thread's creator before he/she abandons thread
e) a truthsmacker whining to the mods
f) the thread being closed

Maybe I'll be surprised this time.

You have been here longer and know better. I made a similar prediction but yours is way more accurate

 

[resodko]

Wow. That about says it all.

well, let's make sure we're speaking the same language


"faggots" refers to those perverts who want their perversion to be seen as normal and accepted

"faggots" does not refer to those perverts who recognize that their perverted actions and desires are perverted and disgusting and are seeking help to change their wicked ways

"retards" refers to those who are too prideful to accept God's Word

God calls them fools


"Christ-hating"?

see "retards"

 

[annabenedetti]

And here I think you're profoundly wrong. One of the more startling things I noted about internet life, a thing I knew nothing about until happening across TOL then subsequently looking about to get a wider feel, is that it draws concentrations of certain types of people of sorts who aren't in my reasonably well traveled experience indicative of anything like a norm for nearly any position held. Many of those are aggressive, ardent personalities.

I don't find much in my experience of TOL that corresponds with my general impression of Christianity or would have even when I was dismissive of the premise. That isn't a crack at TOL, only a note that the number of assertive and angry voices here is very different from my impression of the larger part of our faith while the lesser, more often hopeful and helpful ambassadors of grace are too often under represented. The mild, settled and content to serve quietly are barely found at all.

I can see that to a point, and it's a point I've heard before and tried to use to balance what I see here - with less and less success. I can't help but wonder if this place provides an outlet for what a lot of people are thinking but not saying in real life. Whether it's about gays, or liberals, or people on welfare, or blacks, or women - and Christians, people with differing creeds or doctrinal beliefs. Some of those threads in the religion forum are scary.

 

[resodko]

Because the hope would be they wouldn't be faggots, retards, or Christ-hating pigs anymore? Or what you perceive to be that, at any rate.

when you and annabananahead have a prideful, resistant, retarded, perverted Christ- hating faggot in front of you, feel free to try any approach you like :idunno:

 

[Town Heretic]

I can see that to a point, and it's a point I've heard before and tried to use to balance what I see here - with less and less success. I can't help but wonder if this place provides an outlet for what a lot of people are thinking but not saying in real life. Whether it's about gays, or liberals, or people on welfare, or blacks, or women - and Christians, people with differing creeds or doctrinal beliefs. Some of those threads in the religion forum are scary.

Or it could be nothing more than forum life reflecting political activism these days, which is to say you tend to see the loudest and more extreme members along any ideological line while most people go about quieter lives of adoration.

It all boils down to the context we choose, optimism or cynicism. I don't know how we can love our neighbor and suspect him of being the worst sort, on average.

:cheers:

 

[patrick jane]

i'm sorry to butt in, being new here and all, but i guarantee you that the length of time a person posts on a site is no reflection of how genuine they are... actually i think it's rather naive to think one can know what someone is really like AFK even if you have been reading their posts for years.

i mentioned in another thread that i post in different forums i've been a regular on some for years... i have recognised at least one person here from another forum who most certainly isn't genuine. Personally, i don't particularly care about this person's reputation... The way i see it... unless someone posts from the position of moral authority it doesn't matter how genuine they are, all that matters is their arguments, to bring up their failings outside of the immediate posts/thread would be an ad hominem, so why pretend that you know them...

Good post. I see more people speaking this way. TOL needs that. Praise God, His Spirit Is Moving. Grace Abounds all the More - :idea:

 

[bybee]

when you and annabananahead have a prideful, resistant, retarded, perverted Christ- hating faggot in front of you, feel free to try any approach you like :idunno:

Of course there is you.... a knuckle-dragging, vulgar, classless troglodyte right here before me!
A clod filled with hatred and judgment for those to whom you would deny humanity.
It is behavior that can be influenced. Perhaps there is hope for you to come into the light of God's bountiful love and stop hating on people?

 

[Angel4Truth]

i'm sorry to butt in, being new here and all, but i guarantee you that the length of time a person posts on a site is no reflection of how genuine they are... actually i think it's rather naive to think one can know what someone is really like AFK even if you have been reading their posts for years.

i mentioned in another thread that i post in different forums i've been a regular on some for years... i have recognised at least one person here from another forum who most certainly isn't genuine. Personally, i don't particularly care about this person's reputation... The way i see it... unless someone posts from the position of moral authority it doesn't matter how genuine they are, all that matters is their arguments, to bring up their failings outside of the immediate posts/thread would be an ad hominem, so why pretend that you know them...

I feel bad for you if you don't recognize trolling after a couple years.

The only moral authority is Gods also.

You contradicted your own position on that last line also.

Welcome to TOL.

 

[PureX]

I can see that to a point, and it's a point I've heard before and tried to use to balance what I see here - with less and less success. I can't help but wonder if this place provides an outlet for what a lot of people are thinking but not saying in real life. Whether it's about gays, or liberals, or people on welfare, or blacks, or women - and Christians, people with differing creeds or doctrinal beliefs. Some of those threads in the religion forum are scary.

Sadly, I think this is very often the case. The internet's anonymity allows people to express those ugly inclinations that would otherwise be kept hidden from the general public.

And moreover, I think the medium reveals the things that a really going on in people's minds and hearts more clearly than those people very often realize. I have noted for a long time, now, how a person's writing reflects their thinking (including my own). If the writing is muddled and confused, so is the thinking it's attempting to express. If the writing is deliberately misleading, misrepresentative, and disingenuous, so is the thinking that inspired it. If the writing is both defensive and abrasive to excess, it's meant to protect the writer's ego rather than communicate with others.

On and on it goes.

If the eyes are windows into the soul, our writing is a window into our minds. And via the mind, into the heart. Sadly, what I think you are seeing here on TOL, is what is really in people's minds and hearts, much of the time.

 

[annabenedetti]

Eh, I suppose. Although I think Anna's point is that the very people who upset her, and prove distressing to most of the rest of us, are indeed genuine: genuinely awful. Whether or not that speaks to the majority of Christians is pretty much impossible to say, but I can see why she's unnerved. TOL allows the mask to come off, so to speak.

More weary of it than anything. And pretty immune to it all by now, and I honestly don't know if that's a benefit or a deficit. Being desensitized is good for some things, not so good for others.

But is that what a Christian forum should be about? Desensitizing people to insulting language and bully behavior?

 

[kmoney]

I can see that to a point, and it's a point I've heard before and tried to use to balance what I see here - with less and less success. I can't help but wonder if this place provides an outlet for what a lot of people are thinking but not saying in real life. Whether it's about gays, or liberals, or people on welfare, or blacks, or women - and Christians, people with differing creeds or doctrinal beliefs. Some of those threads in the religion forum are scary.

I don't doubt that's true for some. But how many? :idunno:

Or it could be nothing more than forum life reflecting political activism these days, which is to say you tend to see the loudest and more extreme members along any ideological line while most people go about quieter lives of adoration.

It all boils down to the context we choose, optimism or cynicism. I don't know how we can love our neighbor and suspect him of being the worst sort, on average.

:cheers:

But I think this is a good post and can be a factor in all of this too.

My 'real life' experience speaks louder than TOL and perhaps we need to have a healthy dose of optimism as well.

And maybe some beer too. :cheers:

:noid:

 

[Alexa]

I feel bad for you if you don't recognize trolling after a couple years.

The only moral authority is Gods also.

i wasn't talking about trolling tho so no need to feel sorry for me

You contradicted your own position on that last line also.

not sure how but if you feel like pointing it out to me i'd be happy to respond.

Welcome to TOL.

thanks (and you too, patrick jane) can tell there'll be plenty of excitement here

 

[kmoney]

I feel bad for you if you don't recognize trolling after a couple years.

The only moral authority is Gods also.

You contradicted your own position on that last line also.

Welcome to TOL.

How are you defining 'trolling' and 'genuine' in the context of this thread?

Because I think Granite's point is that the meanness people display on TOL is genuine, and how they act outside the internet is tempered because of the potential consequences.

 

[resodko]

But is that what a Christian forum should be about? Desensitizing people to insulting language and bully behavior?

have you ever actually read the Bible?

 

[Angel4Truth]

How are you defining 'trolling' and 'genuine' in the context of this thread?

Because I think Granite's point is that the meanness people display on TOL is genuine, and how they act outside the internet is tempered because of the potential consequences.

Genuine as in how they are, not putting on a show (genuine), vs some here just to troll people and get a rise out of others for sport (trolling)

 

[Angel4Truth]

i wasn't talking about trolling tho so no need to feel sorry for me

I was and you responded to my post about it.

not sure how but if you feel like pointing it out to me i'd be happy to respond.

here:

i mentioned in another thread that i post in different forums i've been a regular on some for years... i have recognised at least one person here from another forum who most certainly isn't genuine. Personally, i don't particularly care about this person's reputation... The way i see it... unless someone posts from the position of moral authority it doesn't matter how genuine they are, all that matters is their arguments, to bring up their failings outside of the immediate posts/thread would be an ad hominem, so why pretend that you know them...

compare the 2 bolded statements, thats the contradiction.

 

[annabenedetti]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. What does having a thick skin mean? If you simply ignore things is that having a thick skin?

If having a thick skin means gaining an insensitivity toward the same behavior against others then I'd say having a thick skin is a bad thing. See Levelor's post #32. I agree with what he said. But I don't know if having a thick skin necessarily means being insensitive toward how you treat others and how you look at others being treated badly.

I do think that people should let some of what happens roll off their back. And if that's having a thick skin then fine. But it also may be true that it's easier for me to say that when I haven't received the level of attacks that others have.

Good questions, kmo.

This is what I think, others may think differently. To me, a thick skin means learning, through repeated exposure to a negative behavior, to become desensitized to that behavior.

Is it healthy to accept desensitization as a new normal? It depends. In this particular scenario, I don't think so.

The first few times someone called me something hurtful - it hurt. I'll admit, it brought tears to my eyes. But I learned - boy did I learn. Now, they can say pretty much anything and it doesn't bother me at all. I know I'm not fat, I know what my sexual identity is, I know I'm not a pig, or a whore, or a retard or a silly little girl, or any number of other things that don't come to mind at the moment. It certainly won't keep me from saying what I think, which I believe is their motivation behind what they do. To shut down anyone with whom they don't agree. And that comes back to my OP: if what they believe is correct and true, they should be able to defend it in such a way that it draws rather than repels.

It's certainly good to know how to ignore, and I've ignored quite a lot. But when does ignoring become conveniently blind to what's going on around me so I don't have to deal with it, particularly with regard to others being treated the same way or worse? (Because I certainly haven't had the worst of it.) Is looking the other way a sort of tacit acquiescence?

Letting things roll off your back... yes, having a good sense of humor allows for that give and take,, so I know what you're saying there, but that would apply more to those who fight clean, with a humor that sometimes lightens things up.

You're very good at that, by the way.

What's unfortunate is that some of the people you are referring to think that it is Godly to do those things. They think it's okay because they think God condones it. The 'nicer than God' stuff. Which I would largely disagree with, but if people want to point to a few passages scattered throughout the bible to justify insults and mockery then fine, I think what could be a better approach would be to talk about its effectiveness, which you get to next....

I've wondered about those who think they no longer sin. Is it that belief which allows them to say the things they say?

I'd encourage you to not let it change your view. At least not too much. Does it reflect certain circles of the larger world of Christianity? Sure, I imagine it does. But in 'real life' I can't say I've encountered anyone like some of the worst of TOLers. Some people in the fundamental circles may come close. But in my experience Christians aren't like what you describe. Whether it's Pentecostal/Charismatic, Episcopal, Mennonites (if I ever saw a Menno call someone a faggot :shocked

I think part of what we see on TOL is caused by what Granite said. It's easy to spout off through the internet.

I'm trying to keep that in mind.

 

[annabenedetti]

It shows what a fine person she is!

The first reason I made this thread was because I needed to make an apology for not being a fine person. lain:

But when I started writing the OP, a lot that has been on my mind came along. I said something to someone recently about not being afraid to do some introspection, to check himself, check his motivations. I had to do the same thing too, I can't just tell other people to do it and not do it myself.

 

[annabenedetti]

I don't believe in having a tough skin, or in developing one.

To the contrary, I believe that we need to develop sensitivity, gentleness, compassion, long-suffering, and to receive from Christ the peace that He has said that He has left us. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

It is this very peace within which negates the need for a tough skin.

The long-suffering allows, as defined by the online dictionary: having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people. We are told that patience when fully developed makes a perfect (whole, complete, mature, whole lacking nothing) person. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. James 1:4

Now, those who are thought we might need a tough skin from are they very ones who need to develop that gentleness and compassion. For if any of those qualities were possessed for any other than their own, no one would have to have a thick skin. They, who are like this, I fear for their soul. (Matthew 18:6)

I also do not believe in love carefully concealed. I believe in love being fully and openly and continually celebrated in one another, but not if it is tainted and poisoned from the activity of ridiculing and mistreatment of others, i.e. gloating... being the glue that holds a community together. We are called to be greater than this because we are greater than this, if it could only be known.

Only the insecure have to look down on others. If they could only know how much God loves them, other than intellectually, and how much God loves other people, no insecurity would play out with cliques and their inherent appearance of superiority causing others hurt and the thoughts of needing a thick skin.

I could probably go on... but I don't care for extremely long posts; therefore, in order to not be a hypocrite I shall end here with:

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:14-19

Amen.

Thank you, Levolor. That was a beautiful post.

 

[annabenedetti]

Sadly, I think this is very often the case. The internet's anonymity allows people to express those ugly inclinations that would otherwise be kept hidden from the general public.

And moreover, I think the medium reveals the things that a really going on in people's minds and hearts more clearly than those people very often realize. I have noted for a long time, now, how a person's writing reflects their thinking (including my own). If the writing is muddled and confused, so is the thinking it's attempting to express. If the writing is deliberately misleading, misrepresentative, and disingenuous, so is the thinking that inspired it. If the writing is both defensive and abrasive to excess, it's meant to protect the writer's ego rather than communicate with others.

On and on it goes.

If the eyes are windows into the soul, our writing is a window into our minds. And via the mind, into the heart. Sadly, what I think you are seeing here on TOL, is what is really in people's minds and hearts, much of the time.

I pretty much agree with all of that, PureX. Thank you.