First, an apology to GFR7. Then, about growing a TOL-grade thick skin.

[Nick M]

do you accept that there are in this world

faggots
retards
and
Christ-hating pigs and whores?


'cause if you don't, all your whining about how unrighteous it is ain't worth squat :idunno:

I guess anna and rusha don't want to answer.

 

[Angel4Truth]

And as usual you've just tried to make this all about you. Narcissus, heal thyself.:yawn:

No, you made it about me, when you asked me to answer for other people.

Umm...nope. Not. At. All.



Then you need a long solid sit down with a few of your brethren. So-called Christians are consistently the most savage, unpleasant, and wretched individuals here. If this is the witness of your faith I absolutely want no part of it (and am more convinced than ever that I made the right decision). This goes back to Anna's post: The realization that TOL's most disturbed members are Christians. What's worse is her suspicion that this speaks to Christianity as a whole.

That a Christian's true, ugly nature is hidden behind a mask of righteousness that the Internet promptly exposes kind of makes for an unsettling picture, wouldn't ya say?

Two things: No, and no. Let's stick to TOL, at the very least, and not go completely off the rails.

Yeeeeeeeeeeesh.

You're not really addressing the issue Anna raised. You guys consistently hate objections and concerns like hers. This isn't the first time there's been such a thread on TOL, won't be the last, and it'll go like this:

a) utter denial by Christians or an attempt to change the subject (your tactic)
b) soft pedaling by nice Christians (Town Heretic's gambit)
c) savage attacks that prove Anna's point (any second now)
d) a wistful follow up from the thread's creator before he/she abandons thread
e) a truthsmacker whining to the mods
f) the thread being closed

Maybe I'll be surprised this time.

I didn't change the subject, you did, and asked me to both be responsible for AND answer for other people.

Looks like you went off the rails.

 

[Granite]

No, you made it about me, when you asked me to answer for other people.

You hold the mirror up to your own face just fine. Never needed my help.

Anna, thanks for the thread and the sentiments. For whatever good they're worth.

 

[bybee]

You hold the mirror up to your own face just fine. Never needed my help.

Anna, thanks for the thread and the sentiments. For whatever good they're worth.

It shows what a fine person she is!

 

[bybee]

do you accept that there are in this world

faggots
retards
and
Christ-hating pigs and whores?



'cause if you don't, all your whining about how unrighteous it is ain't worth squat :idunno:

I accept that there are knuckle dragging troglodytes, insidious perverter's of Scripture, hate spewing, non-entities passing nit-picking judgments on good and decent folk.
There are people who are very mixed up off sides deluded and even lost in sin.

 

[Rusha]

It shows what a fine person she is!

That she is ... her apology was extremely gracious.

 

[PureX]

TOL has completely changed my view of Christianity. Yes, I've been told that TOL isn't a reflection of the whole of Christianity, but as time goes on, I have to say I'm less and less in agreement with that. There are some really good, very decent people here, and I'm trying not to overgeneralize, but it seems rather overly-optimistic to think that what goes on in this Christian forum couldn't be extrapolated out to encompass the whole of Christianity. I've come to realize it can be, and that bothers me a lot.

I find I have to distinguish in my mind between Christ, and religious Christianity, all the time, because in a great many instances the latter has little to do with the former.

I don't find this particularly upsetting because I have not expected that they would align in many years. Not since I was a kid. And where they do not align, is really where we humans become involved in it; with our egos and emotional instability, and lack of education, and social prejudices, and all sorts of similar shortcomings. And I would be silly to expect humans not to behave like humans. Sad as that behavior sometimes is.

I think human interaction is always going to be fraught with fear and ignorance and resentment, and a certain degree of viciousness. And that being the case, we're going to have to develop a thick skin whether we want to or not. And whether we like it or not. It's just the way it is.

 

[patrick jane]

GFR, I hope you'll accept my sincere apology for the comment I made about you on the Toxicity thread. It was indeed toxic and unnecessary, and I'm sorry.

Later in the same thread you apologized to me, and I want to thank you for that. I appreciate it very much.




I've been thinking a lot about that thread, (posted by someone new to TOL who's already been called retarded), and how it unfolded, about my part in it, and about other threads and posts here, and the people who post them.

So many times I've seen people say you have to have a thick skin to post here, that if you're too thin-skinned, then TOL isn't the place for you. It almost seems like a point of pride, that if you've grown that thick skin, you've somehow made it. Gotten the TOL badge. Having received my share of insults here, I've managed to grow that thicker skin. And I don't like it much, because it means having a certain callousness I didn't have before. And it means I learned to sometimes give as good as I got and I'm not proud of those times, and in them, I played my own part in what I'm talking about.

I never did like the idea of "truth-smacking." Sure, discussions could and should get vehement, there's nothing wrong with that. There are some big areas of contention. But why do Christians think it's okay to say the things that are said here under the pretense of furthering a more righteous, Godly way? There's nothing righteous or Christian or Godly in calling people faggots or retards or Christ-hating pigs or whores.

If you're sure that what you believe is correct and true, you should be able to defend it against all comers, and do it in a way that draws people to Christianity, rather than repels them. TOL has completely changed my view of Christianity. Yes, I've been told that TOL isn't a reflection of the whole of Christianity, but as time goes on, I have to say I'm less and less in agreement with that. There are some really good, very decent people here, and I'm trying not to overgeneralize, but it seems rather overly-optimistic to think that what goes on in this Christian forum couldn't be extrapolated out to encompass the whole of Christianity. I've come to realize it can be, and that bothers me a lot.

Excellent Thread and Post. I developed a thick skin early in life, nothing to be proud of. Much thicker than TOL, but I also kept feeling and loving. We could be shedding that dead skin, but we get pulled in. I feel exactly what you say and I've said it different ways, but it aways ends the same. (another song).jk - I try not to take things personal, and keep a sense of humor it doesn't always work for us. Unfortunately, the ones that do it most, will either do it here or avoid this thread. No one can insult me (us) unless we let them.

 

[Town Heretic]

and here I think you're deceptively right

I think you can't help yourself, can you.

tol does not represent the christian world for many reasons
christians by and large are not mad
nor are they calvinists
two very dangerous beliefs

See, you're one of those people I talked about. Only you shout quietly, which is a novel gambit. At heart, you're really at home among the zealots.

 

[Alexa]

I don't doubt that, but after a couple years talking to the same people, can't you kinda tell who is genuine and who isn't, seriously?

i'm sorry to butt in, being new here and all, but i guarantee you that the length of time a person posts on a site is no reflection of how genuine they are... actually i think it's rather naive to think one can know what someone is really like AFK even if you have been reading their posts for years.

i mentioned in another thread that i post in different forums i've been a regular on some for years... i have recognised at least one person here from another forum who most certainly isn't genuine. Personally, i don't particularly care about this person's reputation... The way i see it... unless someone posts from the position of moral authority it doesn't matter how genuine they are, all that matters is their arguments, to bring up their failings outside of the immediate posts/thread would be an ad hominem, so why pretend that you know them...

 

[annabenedetti]

I guess anna and rusha don't want to answer.

You guessed wrong, I posted the thread before I left for school and haven't been able to come back to it until now.

 

[Levolor]

I don't believe in having a tough skin, or in developing one.

To the contrary, I believe that we need to develop sensitivity, gentleness, compassion, long-suffering, and to receive from Christ the peace that He has said that He has left us. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

It is this very peace within which negates the need for a tough skin.

The long-suffering allows, as defined by the online dictionary: having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people. We are told that patience when fully developed makes a perfect (whole, complete, mature, whole lacking nothing) person. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. James 1:4

Now, those who are thought we might need a tough skin from are they very ones who need to develop that gentleness and compassion. For if any of those qualities were possessed for any other than their own, no one would have to have a thick skin. They, who are like this, I fear for their soul. (Matthew 18:6)

I also do not believe in love carefully concealed. I believe in love being fully and openly and continually celebrated in one another, but not if it is tainted and poisoned from the activity of ridiculing and mistreatment of others, i.e. gloating... being the glue that holds a community together. We are called to be greater than this because we are greater than this, if it could only be known.

Only the insecure have to look down on others. If they could only know how much God loves them, other than intellectually, and how much God loves other people, no insecurity would play out with cliques and their inherent appearance of superiority causing others hurt and the thoughts of needing a thick skin.

I could probably go on... but I don't care for extremely long posts; therefore, in order to not be a hypocrite I shall end here with:

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:14-19

Amen.

 

[annabenedetti]

do you accept that there are in this world

faggots
retards
and
Christ-hating pigs and whores?



'cause if you don't, all your whining about how unrighteous it is ain't worth squat :idunno:

There are all kinds of people in the world. Using epithets to describe any of them is a lot more likely to repel people from your beliefs than attract them.

Unless they already share the same lexicon, of course.

 

[annabenedetti]

I knew it was only a matter of time before the forces of evil set their petty differences aside and came together to fight us homophobic bigoted Christians.

Hopefully GFR7 will come back and quit pretending to be a conservative and show his true rainbow colors like you do anna.

Your tactics were one of the biggest influences on my changing views regarding same sex marriage. You're not alone, though. Those who still advocate for stoning/execution for homosexuals gave me a lot to think about as well, and gave me a new appreciation for the separation of church and state.

 

[kmoney]

and here I think you're deceptively right

tol does not represent the christian world for many reasons
christians by and large are not mad
nor are they calvinists
two very dangerous beliefs

Do you thin MAD and Calvinism contribute to what anna talks about in the opening post?

 

[resodko]

There are all kinds of people in the world.

then you do accept that there are in this world

faggots
retards
and
Christ-hating pigs and whores :thumb:

Using epithets to describe any of them is a lot more likely to repel people from your beliefs than attract them.

why would i want to attract faggots, retards and Christ-hating pigs and whores to my beliefs?

 

[annabenedetti]

great post anna

this must be one of your very best
and
I am not surprised

I know you take this all very seriously
maybe sometimes too seriously

you do care
and
everyone can see that

Thank you chrys. I appreciate it a lot. You said something in the other thread about needing newbies to remind us how uncivil we can be, and I think you're right about that. I have to look at myself and realize I can be just as uncivil in my own way.

 

[annabenedetti]

why would i want to attract faggots, retards and Christ-hating pigs and whores to my beliefs?

Wow. That about says it all.

 

[kmoney]

I've been thinking a lot about that thread, (posted by someone new to TOL who's already been called retarded), and how it unfolded, about my part in it, and about other threads and posts here, and the people who post them.

So many times I've seen people say you have to have a thick skin to post here, that if you're too thin-skinned, then TOL isn't the place for you. It almost seems like a point of pride, that if you've grown that thick skin, you've somehow made it. Gotten the TOL badge. Having received my share of insults here, I've managed to grow that thicker skin. And I don't like it much, because it means having a certain callousness I didn't have before. And it means I learned to sometimes give as good as I got and I'm not proud of those times, and in them, I played my own part in what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. What does having a thick skin mean? If you simply ignore things is that having a thick skin?

If having a thick skin means gaining an insensitivity toward the same behavior against others then I'd say having a thick skin is a bad thing. See Levelor's post #32. I agree with what he said. But I don't know if having a thick skin necessarily means being insensitive toward how you treat others and how you look at others being treated badly.

I do think that people should let some of what happens roll off their back. And if that's having a thick skin then fine. But it also may be true that it's easier for me to say that when I haven't received the level of attacks that others have.

I never did like the idea of "truth-smacking." Sure, discussions could and should get vehement, there's nothing wrong with that. There are some big areas of contention. But why do Christians think it's okay to say the things that are said here under the pretense of furthering a more righteous, Godly way? There's nothing righteous or Christian or Godly in calling people faggots or retards or Christ-hating pigs or whores.

What's unfortunate is that some of the people you are referring to think that it is Godly to do those things. They think it's okay because they think God condones it. The 'nicer than God' stuff. Which I would largely disagree with, but if people want to point to a few passages scattered throughout the bible to justify insults and mockery then fine, I think what could be a better approach would be to talk about its effectiveness, which you get to next....

If you're sure that what you believe is correct and true, you should be able to defend it against all comers, and do it in a way that draws people to Christianity, rather than repels them.

:up: If the harsh language draws anyone then I think it would be the exception to the rule. So why use it. Assuming you use it because you think it will be effective. But I imagine some people aren't using it for that reason....

TOL has completely changed my view of Christianity. Yes, I've been told that TOL isn't a reflection of the whole of Christianity, but as time goes on, I have to say I'm less and less in agreement with that. There are some really good, very decent people here, and I'm trying not to overgeneralize, but it seems rather overly-optimistic to think that what goes on in this Christian forum couldn't be extrapolated out to encompass the whole of Christianity. I've come to realize it can be, and that bothers me a lot.

I'd encourage you to not let it change your view. At least not too much. Does it reflect certain circles of the larger world of Christianity? Sure, I imagine it does. But in 'real life' I can't say I've encountered anyone like some of the worst of TOLers. Some people in the fundamental circles may come close. But in my experience Christians aren't like what you describe. Whether it's Pentecostal/Charismatic, Episcopal, Mennonites (if I ever saw a Menno call someone a faggot :shocked

I think part of what we see on TOL is caused by what Granite said. It's easy to spout off through the internet.

 

[kmoney]

why would i want to attract faggots, retards and Christ-hating pigs and whores to my beliefs?

Because the hope would be they wouldn't be faggots, retards, or Christ-hating pigs anymore? Or what you perceive to be that, at any rate.