Favorite Theologian?

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm saying there is no sin in HIM, and we are IN HIM.

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN Christ Jesus.

I take that as a fact. Believers have been delivered from the Law and are complete in Christ Jesus.

As believers we still have faults, but, NO, sin is not accounted to us at all.

Yes, Christians are risen with the Lord and sit together with him in heavenly places. That is our "standing" before God. But our walk is another matter altogether. When we sin we become defiled in our walk and here Paul speaks of that defilement:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

How does a Christian cleanse himself after being defiled so he can go from a state of being unholy to one of being holy?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).

Now will you answer my question? Do you think that Christians are incapable of sinning? If your answer is "no" then does a sin defile a Christian?

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, Christians are risen with the Lord and sit together with him in heavenly places. That is our "standing" before God. But our walk is another matter altogether. When we sin we become defiled in our walk and here Paul speaks of that defilement:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

How does a Christian cleanse himself after being defiled so he can go from a state of being unholy to one of being holy?

Paul is talking about turning from idols to serve the living God. This is the promise Paul speaks of in 2 Cor. 7:1. The promises are there for those who come out from among them. We cleanse ourselves through the washing of the water of the word when we believe unto righteousness.

2 Cor. 6:16-18 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.​

"

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Romans 10 says we "believe unto righteousness".

Now will you answer my question? Do you think that Christians are incapable of sinning? If your answer is "no" then does a sin defile a Christian?

We are quite capable of sinning, if we were still under the law instead of Grace.....unless we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin. Which is what being delivered from the law accomplishes for those who believe the Gospel.

Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

When we were the servants of sin....Romans 6:19-21 "But now..."

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are quite capable of sinning, if we were still under the law instead of Grace.....

So your answer is that those of us who are under grace are not capable of sinning?

 

[glorydaz]

So your answer is that those of us who are under grace are not capable of sinning?

It has nothing to do with our being "capable".
It has to do with our being kept by the power of God unto the day of salvation.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.​

We've been delivered from the law, and sin is not accounted to us. We're hid with Christ in God.

We've moved into a different realm entirely. The Spirit of LIFE IN CHRIST has freed us from the law of sin and death. Were we still capable of "sinning", we wouldn't be freed from that law at all, we'd still be under it...still confessing what has already been forgiven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Were we still capable of "sinning", we wouldn't be freed from that law at all, we'd still be under it...still confessing.

So you are saying that Christians are not capable of sinning.

 

[glorydaz]

So you are saying that Christians are not capable of sinning.

You used to irritate me when you did that, but now I find it endearing.

Yes, I will say we aren't capable of sinning, and here is why. We are not under the law for righteousness. We've moved into the Father's House....no longer outside in darkness of night, and living in the streets, or eating out of garbage cans where we can be charged with all sorts of crimes. We are washed, sanctified, justified.......

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

My own children are safe in my house. I don't charge them with crimes for their faults, I turn those faults into teaching moments. I chasten them when they require it, and train them in the way they should go. It's how I conform them into the adults I'd like them to be.

He who commits sin is of the devil. That is no longer us. We are saints....not sinners. We are children of the light....no longer in the darkness or the night.

 

[musterion]

I can see your confusion when you continue to try to mash the LORD's doctrine for Israel with that of the body of Christ.

That's the problem right there.

Either we have confessional/conditional forgiveness of sins, or we have plenary/permanent forgiveness of sins. Not both.

Either we have limited access depending upon our behavior, or unrestricted access based on the blood and empty tomb. Not both.

Either we're standing on Christ's merit, or ours. Not both.

Law/performance, or grace, Jerry. Not both.

Pick one.

You're a Bible blender on this, Jerry. 100% Acts 2 dispie territory. Badly inconsistent.

 

[musterion]

So you are saying that Christians are not capable of sinning.

Jerry, if I may suggest something. If you've never considered it, you should look into the Pauline concept of Position vs Condition, or Standing vs State.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, I will say we aren't capable of sinning, and here is why.

So you have not sinned since you were saved?

My own children are safe in my house. I don't charge them with crimes for their faults, I turn those faults into teaching moments. I chasten them when they require it, and train them in the way they should go. It's how I conform them into the adults I'd like them to be.

That is exactly what the LORD does to His children:

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:31).​

Do you ever judge yourself?

If you do, what is that judgment about?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, if I may suggest something. If you've never considered it, you should look into the Pauline concept of Position vs Condition, or Standing vs State.

Please read post #121.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's the problem right there.

Either we have confessional/conditional forgiveness of sins, or we have plenary/permanent forgiveness of sins. Not both.

Your problem is the fact that you divide the Bible where it shouldn't be divided.

The words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 12:13 are addressed to them that in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor.1:2) so that would include all the Jewish believers and all of the Gentile believers living in the first century. And here again is what he told ALL of them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All, not some. But you just ignore what Paul says and assert that even though Paul makes it plain that the Jews who received John's first epistle were members of the Body the doctrine found in John's epistles is not for us!

You're a Bible blender on this, Jerry. 100% Acts 2 dispie territory. Badly inconsistent.

I don't ignore what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:13 like you. At Acts 2 no one was saved by works because they were saved by grace through faith just like we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Here is what the Lord Jesus said to those who lived under the law and everyone of them who believed were saved right then and there and enjoyed eternal security:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

We also read these words of Paul in regard to David, who lived under the law:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).​

The Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith just as we are.

You have been given some bad information concerning Jewish salvation.

 

[Gary K]

Where did I ask you that? Show me....then we can see what "idea" you're talking about now.



And I showed you very explicitly what was defensiveness and what was not defensiveness.

Now, you double down on being defensive. :chuckle:



Well, I can see the whiner is back looking for things to whine about.

All this whining because I dared to use the word YET and post a scripture.



From the YELLOW in your statement above. So, save your snivelling for someone who is willing to soothe your wounded ego. That's not going to be me.

You put up a fancy statement, and now you're trying to pick a fight with anyone who doesn't pat you on the back for your holier than thou words. And YET, the body of Christ is made up of HUMANS.

I've seen this act before, and I'm not impressed. <>

Are you a theologian? Is this why you are so offended that I don't read theologians?

You have yet to respond to any of the scripture I have referred to, and while I have not quoted it, these texts are so well known that you know they exist. Instead you have made this an ad hominen attack, instead of addressing what I have shown out of scripture. Everything you highlighted in your response comes straight from scripture.

BTW, I'm not very impressed either....

 

[Right Divider]

The original Mid-Acts view on the Jewish epistles is stated here by O'Hair:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis added] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

That's a wonderfully confused opinion that you and J.C. have.

• The 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel... not the body of Christ.
• The body of Christ will judge angels (1 Cor 6:3).
• The body of Christ is nowhere mentioned in any of the Hebrew epistles nor the four 'gospels' (nor early Acts).
• There are some doctrines that are universal and apply to both believing Israel and the body of Christ. These can be found anywhere in the Bible.

It's quite interesting that J.C. O'Hair likes to use 1 Peter 3:18 but was also totally opposed to 1 Peter 3:21

Do you also believe that the body of Christ is "a royal priesthood" and "an holy nation"? Do you also preach 1 Peter 2:12 a lot?

1Pet 2:12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. ​

Bullingerism is Acts 28. Your ideas originated not in Mid-Acts but instead in Acts 28.

Nonsense and a FALSE accusation. Shame on you Jerry.

Do you think that in the first century that ALL of the Jewish believers called on the name of the Lord Jesus?

Are you another one that thinks that Jesus is limited to a single mission? Can Jesus not be the King of Israel and the Head of the Body?

Here is what Paul said to all of them who call on His name:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

You missed my point. The words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 12:13 are addressed to them that in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor.1:2) so that would include all the Jewish believers and all of the Gentile believers living in the first century. And here again is what he told ALL of them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All, not some.

And YET Paul still makes some strange and interesting distinctions:

1Cor 1:2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
​

Why Jerry? Why THEIRS and OURS? I thought that it was all just one body.

 

[Gary K]

I am talking about the teachers who are members of the Body of Christ:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph.4:11).​

I am not talking about the Holy Spirit as being a teacher but instead the human beings whom the LORD gave to the church to be teachers (plural).

Why would the LORD give them to us unless we are to learn from them? Of course any teaching must be examined closely by the light of the Scriptures in order to determine if the truth is being taught.

God did not give all theologians to the body of Christ to be teachers. That's point one. There are so many of them that teach flat out Satanic ideas that this point is not debatable. And I know you're not speaking about the Holy Spirit being our teacher, but that's who I go to and trust to teach me because Jesus told me that the Spirit would be my teacher. Can any human being be His equal in ability and knowledge. Why do you criticize me for taking God at His word?

You have not offered to show me any theologian who knows as much about God as the Holy Spirit does. Why not? I make enough mistakes on my own, why would I want to put another layer of fallibility between myself and God? That's no slam on any theologian. That's just the reality of humanity's sinful nature and our finite nature.

Jesus always referred directly to scripture. He said, man lives not by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. In going directly to the Bible I am going directly to the words that proceed from the mouth of God. Jesus' condemnation of the Sadducees and Pharisees, the theologians of His day, was that they understood neither the power of God nor the scriptures themselves. Jesus' words to Nicodemus, a theologian and teacher of Israel, revealed that had Nicodemus understood the scriptures he would have understood what it means to be born again, yet Nicodemus was clearly clueless as to that when he came to interview Jesus. Jesus, at twelve years old, was confounding the theologians of His day with the questions He asked about scripture. That tells me those theologians were a long ways away from truth. Jesus further reinforces this in John 5:

[SIZE=+0]39[/SIZE] ¶Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[SIZE=+0]40[/SIZE] And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[SIZE=+0]41[/SIZE] I receive not honour from men.
[SIZE=+0]42[/SIZE] But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[SIZE=+0]43[/SIZE] I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SIZE=+0]44[/SIZE] How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SIZE=+0]45[/SIZE] Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SIZE=+0]46[/SIZE] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SIZE=+0]47[/SIZE] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Have you ever read the Talmud? I have English translations of both the Jersualem and Babylonian versions. In reading the Talmud it becomes exceedling clear that Jesus spoke the absolute truth. The Jewish theologians had so disected and abstracted scripture that many times their conclusions were so removed from what that scripture actually teaches that there is little to no resemblance between the scripture and their conclusions. Disecting and abstracting scripture is what theologians do. That's their job. And we see from history how often they have gone completely off the rails. And those who followed them went right on off the rails with them.

Why was there ever a Protestant Reformation? It's easy to answer. Because the Catholic theologians had become completely corrupt. The supposed teachers of the people taught error in place of truth. And what was the argument of the Catholic church against the reformers? That God had put them where they were to teach the people. They asserted that they were authorized by God to interpret scripture.

Look at this site. How many voices do we hear saying exactly the opposite things about scripture? They all profess to be the ones teaching truth. The only way to know who is truthful is to go directly to God and prayerfully open His word. Now to what good use of time was it put all these voices first when we have to go to God and scripture to know what is true anyway? So, I just put going to God and scripture first in line. I just shorten the distance and time it would take me to reach the point of going to God and scripture to know truth.

One last thing. You still have not addressed the texts from Acts and Galations that I asked you to address.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why Jerry? Why THEIRS and OURS? I thought that it was all just one body.

Why don't you believe what Paul said to all those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus, that we are ALL baptized into the Body of Christ? You didn't even address that point because you still maintain that only "some" of the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body despite Paul's words to the contrary. Instead, you went to something else. Here is what Cornelius Stam said about the point which you brought up:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

That's a wonderfully confused opinion that you and J.C. have.

The 12 will judge the 12 tribes of Israel... not the body of Christ.

Christians will return with the Lord Jesus to the earth and they will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2). So who would be more qualified to judge the segment of the world belonging to the twelve tribes than the Twelve?

It's quite interesting that J.C. O'Hair likes to use 1 Peter 3:18 but was also totally opposed to 1 Peter 3:21

Do you not realize that those who lived under the law were saved in the same exact way whereby we are saved, by grace through faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

As Paul said, if it is of works then it is not of grace. Besides that, the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law and as you can see the blessings were received strictly by faith:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

You evidently do not understand the meaning of what is said at 1 Peter 3:21 so please consider what Sir Robert Anderson said about it so go to the following link and scroll down to the bottom of the page:

http://www.newble.co.uk/anderson/texts/texts9.html

Do you also believe that the body of Christ is "a royal priesthood" and "an holy nation"? Do you also preach 1 Peter 2:12 a lot?

You should spend some time studying about the various "types" found in the Scriptures and then you might come to an understanding of what Peter was speaking about in those verses.

Nonsense and a FALSE accusation. Shame on you Jerry.

It is not a false accusation. The idea that the doctrine found in the Jewish epistles is not for those in the Body of Christ was not taught by either Anderson or O'Hair. It was first taught by Bullinger and later Charles Baker adopted Bullinger's view. And Bullinger was Acts 28 and not Mid-Acts.

The body of Christ is nowhere mentioned in any of the Hebrew epistles nor the four 'gospels' (nor early Acts).

Again, the words of John here can only be speaking of being in the Body of Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Besides that, John was expecting to be raptured (1 Jn.3:2) and only those in the Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God did not give all theologians to the body of Christ to be teachers.

I never said otherwise. I said that the teaching of anyone who claims to be a teacher appointed by God must be examined by the light of the Scriptures.

For what purpose do you think the LORD gives teachers to those in the Body of Christ?:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph.4:11).​

 

[musterion]

Please read post #121.

That's why I said it. What you posted does not add up when you throw John into the mix.

 

[musterion]

Your problem is the fact that you divide the Bible where it shouldn't be divided.

On whose authority to you instruct me where to divide it? I go by what Paul says; where what he said does not align with what John said, I go with what Paul said as doctrine for me. What I do NOT do is try to blend them and apply both to myself. As you do. Seriously, Jerry, what you're posting is straight up Acts 2 doctrine, not mid-Acts.

The words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 12:13 are addressed to them that in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor.1:2) so that would include all the Jewish believers and all of the Gentile believers living in the first century. And here again is what he told ALL of them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
​

What does this have to do with the believer's walk in this fallen flesh?

All, not some. But you just ignore what Paul says and assert that even though Paul makes it plain that the Jews who received John's first epistle were members of the Body the doctrine found in John's epistles is not for us!

I've already addressed this. Confessional forgiveness or plenary forgiveness. Pick one because both cannot apply to you.

 

[SUTG]

Do you think Augustine was right when he taught that infant baptism is necessary to remove the stain of an imagined original sin?

No, but I am an atheist so take that with a grain of salt.

I remember reading Confessions and the City of God, but do not recall the part you mention. Please refresh my memory.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

On whose authority to you instruct me where to divide it?

The authority of Paul's words which were addressed to the church at Corinth and also addressed to those in every place who call on the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor.1:2). That must include all of the believers in the first century which included ALL the Jewish believers.

And here is what he told them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

ALL of the first century Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ. Therefore, the first epistle of John was written to those belonging to the Body of Christ. And this is what John tells them:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​