Favorite Theologian?

[glorydaz]

If a person does not walk upright according to the truth of the gospel then that person is sinning.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Ro.14:23).​

What are you claiming that Peter was in doubt about? Did he doubt that we are saved by grace through faith? Did he believe eating with Gentiles would make him unclean?

Romans 14:20-23 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

Nope, Peter was just afraid of the Jews. He wasn't trusting in the law. We walk by faith when our trust is in the righteousness of Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

Are you not claiming that you do not need a teacher who is given by the LORD to those in the Body?

Need is pretty strong. Once we hear and believe the Gospel, we're saved....as I'm sure you would agree.

Our growth and maturity certainly are affected when we are cut off from members of the body for some reason. But there is no replacement for the time spent in prayer and reading Scripture, and if stuck on a desert island, I'd choose my Bible over any teacher or preacher.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What are you claiming that Peter was in doubt about? Did he doubt that we are saved by grace through faith? Did he believe eating with Gentiles would make him unclean?

I didn't say that he was in doubt about anything. But he was not walking according to the "good news" of the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentiles. That is why Paul said that Peter was to be blamed.

But even though Paul said that Peter was to blamed you say that Peter did not sin.

Need is pretty strong. Once we hear and believe the Gospel, we're saved....as I'm sure you would agree.

Yes, and after being saved we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus (2 Pet.3:18). Why do you think the LORD gives those in the Body teachers?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Augustine

Do you think Augustine was right when he taught that infant baptism is necessary to remove the stain of an imagined original sin?

 

[glorydaz]

I didn't say that he was in doubt about anything. But he was not walking according to the "good news" of the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentiles. That is why Paul said that Peter was to be blamed.

But even though Paul said that Peter was to blamed you say that Peter did not sin.

Peter wasn't saying there was a difference between the Jew and the Gentiles, he just didn't want the Jews to beat him up when he sat down to eat with the Gentiles. Peter was always a bit of a coward. That isn't a sin, and Paul didn't say it was a sin.

Yes, and after being saved we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus (2 Pet.3:18). Why do you think the LORD gives those in the Body teachers?

I'm not arguing about the blessing of having teachers in the body. I've learned lots of things from you, Jerry, and I appreciate you....as I have other members of the body who post here. I've learned a lot I would not know without the body ministry.

But, babes in Christ are just as beloved as those who are more mature.

 

[musterion]

Do you think Augustine was right when he taught that infant baptism is necessary to remove the stain of an imagined original sin?

How does a member of Christ have his fellowship with God cut off while also having unlimited, bold and confident access to Him (Eph 3:11-12) in the Son? How's that work, Jerry?

 

[Gary K]

Are you not claiming that you do not need a teacher who is given by the LORD to those in the Body?

Where do you get that from? I have stated I do need a teacher. I need the Holy Spirit. Is the Holy Spirit not given by God to be our teacher? What human being is a better teacher, or even a teacher of equal ability and equal knowledge of God, than the Holy Spirit? Name this person and I will gladly study his writings. As I study the Bible on a regular basis am I not studying the words of prophets, apostles, teachers, and holy men known to be inspired by God? Do all theologians, teachers, etc.. teach Biblical truth?

I'd appreciate you responding to Acts 20: 29 and Galatians 1: 6-8.

 

[Gary K]

It is NOT defensive to "explain your thinking".



It's defensive to claim I said anything about "bad behaviour" when you were explaining your thinking. It was defensive to grab ahold of my word YET, and get all bent out of shape over it.

My YET was merely a reminder that members of the body of Christ consist of more than just YOU AND YOUR BIBLE. We learn from one another, as different members of the body expound on the Scriptures. I am not saying we have to swallow everything every Tom Dick and Harry preaches.

Now, are you going to keep showing us how defensive you are about everything you post? Or can you simply post and respond like normal folks do?

glorydaz,

You asked me where I got my idea from and I explained myself. You accused me of defensiveness and I asked, in response to your accusation, if explaining myself is defensiveness?

Now, is not defensiveness bad behavior? I see it as that way, and I would say you see it as that too, as you described what you percieved as my "defensiveness" as spiritual immaturity. That was the sum of one of your replies to me.

As to learning from other people, where do you get the idea I do not? Because I'm disagreeing with you? Where did I state I never learn anything from people around me? I didn't, and I never would say that because I learn from other people all the time. Just because I don't go to theologians doesn't mean I don't learn from others. Some of the finest people I've ever known, and the most Christlike I've ever known, have been people who never read a word a theologian ever wrote. Some of them didn't have the intellectual acumen to study theology as such. But they knew God. They knew Him as their friend. When they prayed it was very obvious that they knew the person they were speaking to. I learned a lot from those people. And what was the only resource they ever read? The Bible. It was from the Bible, and the Bible alone, that they learned to know God in a way that caused them to be like Jesus. I can see no greater outcome than that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Peter wasn't saying there was a difference between the Jew and the Gentiles, he just didn't want the Jews to beat him up when he sat down to eat with the Gentiles. Peter was always a bit of a coward. That isn't a sin, and Paul didn't say it was a sin.

So are you saying that Christians are incapable of sinning?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where do you get that from?

I am talking about the teachers who are members of the Body of Christ:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph.4:11).​

I have stated I do need a teacher. I need the Holy Spirit.

I am not talking about the Holy Spirit as being a teacher but instead the human beings whom the LORD gave to the church to be teachers (plural).

Why would the LORD give them to us unless we are to learn from them? Of course any teaching must be examined closely by the light of the Scriptures in order to determine if the truth is being taught.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How does a member of Christ have his fellowship with God cut off while also having unlimited, bold and confident access to Him (Eph 3:11-12) in the Son? How's that work, Jerry?

We can have confidence to our access to Him if we know that the sins which we commit during our walk have been forgiven:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

If a Christian is sinning during his walk he is walking in darkness and therefore his fellowship with the LORD is cut off. But when that person confesses his sin then his fellowship is restored. Do you not think that any sin which a Christian commits defiles him? And the only way that I know that a defiled Christian can be restored to a state of holiness is by confessing that sin because upon confessing he is cleansed from all unrighteousness.

That is how the Lord Jesus, acting as our High Priest, makes intercession for us.

 

[Right Divider]

We can have confidence to our access to Him if we know that the sins which we commit during our walk have been forgiven:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

If a Christian is sinning during his walk he is walking in darkness and therefore his fellowship with the LORD is cut off. But when that person confesses his sin then his fellowship is restored. Do you not think that any sin which a Christian commits defiles him? And the only way that I know that a defiled Christian can be restored to a state of holiness is by confessing that sin because upon confessing he is cleansed from all unrighteousness.

That is how the Lord Jesus, acting as our High Priest, makes intercession for us.

I can see your confusion when you continue to try to mash the LORD's doctrine for Israel with that of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ does not have a High Priest. We have a Head.

Paul never refers to the LORD Jesus Christ as our High Priest.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I can see your confusion when you continue to try to mash the LORD's doctrine for Israel with that of the body of Christ.

What do you think Peter is speaking about here in "bold"?:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

What John says in the following verse can only be speaking of those who are "in Christ," in the Body of Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Do you really think that teaching applies to Israel?

The body of Christ does not have a High Priest. We have a Head.

The Lord Jesus is now in heaven as High Priest and is now making intercession for all the members of the Body of Christ (Heb.7:25; Ro.8:34).

Besides that, in the first part of 1 Corinthians Paul writes that his words in that epistle are addressed to all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

Of course those who received the Jewish epistles are included because they called upon the name of the Lord Jesus. And here is what Paul tells them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All, not just some.

Paul certainly believed that all those who received the Jewish epistles are members of the Body as well as the authors of those epistles.

Your ideas come straight from the Acts 28 crowd and neither Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, or Cornelius Stam taught that only some of the Jewish believers living in the first century were members of the Body. And O'Hair said the following:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis added] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know that there are any theologians who have shaped my beliefs. I never read theologians. My reasoning for this goes along the following line of thought that is based upon the promises of God.

Jesus promised that He would send the Comforter and that He would lead us into all truth. Paul said the Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica because they "searched the scriptures daily" to see if what Paul said was true. In other words they took Jesus at His word. They trusted Him to lead them into all truth, and they did the noble thing of searching the scriptures for themselves. This course of action was highly commended by Paul. And, the Bible itself tells us that the scriptures are as sharp as any two-edged sword and profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. What more could I ask for?

So, with the promise of Jesus to provide supernatural help in understanding the scriptures why would I go to a human source to learn? To me that is like turning from the rivers of living waters that flow from God to rivers of finite sources that cannot of themselves give life. We humans are all fallible, but the scriptures themselves tell us they are direct revelation from God. They are God-breathed.

Jesus also told us that we will be blessed according to our faith in Him. Thus, to trust Him to keep His promise to us seems like it is the best course of action. Why should I trust a another human to do what God Himself has promised to do for us: enlighten our hearts and minds with His presence. Seems to me that our infinite God can teach us far more about Himself than any human can ever hope to equal.

glorydaz,

You asked me where I got my idea from and I explained myself.

Where did I ask you that? Show me....then we can see what "idea" you're talking about now.

You accused me of defensiveness and I asked, in response to your accusation, if explaining myself is defensiveness?

And I showed you very explicitly what was defensiveness and what was not defensiveness.

Now, you double down on being defensive. :chuckle:

Now, is not defensiveness bad behavior? I see it as that way, and I would say you see it as that too, as you described what you percieved as my "defensiveness" as spiritual immaturity. That was the sum of one of your replies to me.

Well, I can see the whiner is back looking for things to whine about.

All this whining because I dared to use the word YET and post a scripture.

As to learning from other people, where do you get the idea I do not? Because I'm disagreeing with you? Where did I state I never learn anything from people around me? I didn't, and I never would say that because I learn from other people all the time. Just because I don't go to theologians doesn't mean I don't learn from others.

From the YELLOW in your statement above. So, save your snivelling for someone who is willing to soothe your wounded ego. That's not going to be me.

You put up a fancy statement, and now you're trying to pick a fight with anyone who doesn't pat you on the back for your holier than thou words. And YET, the body of Christ is made up of HUMANS.

I've seen this act before, and I'm not impressed. <>

 

[glorydaz]

So are you saying that Christians are incapable of sinning?

I'm saying there is no sin in HIM, and we are IN HIM.

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN Christ Jesus.

I take that as a fact. Believers have been delivered from the Law and are complete in Christ Jesus.

As believers we still have faults, but, NO, sin is not accounted to us at all.

 

[Right Divider]

What do you think Peter is speaking about here in "bold"?:

"Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus" (1 Pet.5:14).​

I believe that he is talking about Christ Jesus and there is more than one way to be "in Christ Jesus".

What John says in the following verse can only be speaking of those who are "in Christ," in the Body of Christ:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Do you really think that teaching applies to Israel?

Nope... I understand that SOME things are universal and SOME things are not.

That Paul never even ONCE uses the word "priest" nor "priesthood" in ANY of his epistles should be obvious enough.

The Lord Jesus is now in heaven as High Priest and is now making intercession for all the members of the Body of Christ (Heb.7:25; Ro.8:34).

The book to the HEBREWS is just chock-full of doctrine TO and ABOUT Israel. Why do you think that the book to the HEBREWS pertains to the body of Christ in relationship to a priesthood when the body of Christ has no priesthood?

Besides that, in the first part of 1 Corinthians Paul writes that his words in that epistle are addressed to all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

So you don't think that it's possible for the LORD Jesus Christ to serve TWO different roles?

Of course those who received the Jewish epistles are included because they called upon the name of the Lord Jesus. And here is what Paul tells them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All, not just some.

This certainly refers to the body of Christ which you have already said could not have begun at Pentecost. All in the body of Christ are certainly all that are in the body of Christ. This does NOT mean that the LORD Jesus Christ cannot service BOTH as the High Priest for Israel AND the head of the body of Christ.

Paul certainly believed that all those who received the Jewish epistles are members of the Body as well as the authors of those epistles.

Your ideas come straight from the Acts 28 crowd and neither Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, or Cornelius Stam taught that only some of the Jewish believers living in the first century were members of the Body. And O'Hair said the following:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis added] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

No, my ideas to NOT come from the "Acts 28 crowd", But I'm never surprised by false accusations, even by Christians. I am totally and completely Acts 9, unlike you.

Also note that the Hebrew epistles and the so-called gospels never use the concept of the BODY OF CHRIST for believers in the LORD.

 

[glorydaz]

So you are not going to judge yourself in regard to your behavior because you think what Paul said in those verses is no longer in effect?

I got news for you. Even though you are saved any sins which you commit now separate you from having fellowship with the LORD. If you don't realize that then you don't understand that unholy things cannot fellowship with the LORD who is Holy.

"But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear" (Isa.59:2).​

On the contrary....

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[glorydaz]

We can have confidence to our access to Him if we know that the sins which we commit during our walk have been forgiven:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

If a Christian is sinning during his walk he is walking in darkness and therefore his fellowship with the LORD is cut off. But when that person confesses his sin then his fellowship is restored. Do you not think that any sin which a Christian commits defiles him? And the only way that I know that a defiled Christian can be restored to a state of holiness is by confessing that sin because upon confessing he is cleansed from all unrighteousness.

That is how the Lord Jesus, acting as our High Priest, makes intercession for us.

Yet, we are no longer in darkness, but are light IN THE LORD.

Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thess. 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.​

 

[glorydaz]

I believe that he is talking about Christ Jesus and there is more than one way to be "in Christ Jesus".

True, and we see this confusion over the True Vine. This surely is not talking about being in the body of Christ, is it?

John 15:1-6
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, my ideas to NOT come from the "Acts 28 crowd", But I'm never surprised by false accusations, even by Christians. I am totally and completely Acts 9, unlike you.

The original Mid-Acts view on the Jewish epistles is stated here by O'Hair:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis added] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

Bullingerism is Acts 28. Your ideas originated not in Mid-Acts but instead in Acts 28.

Do you think that in the first century that ALL of the Jewish believers called on the name of the Lord Jesus?

Here is what Paul said to all of them who call on His name:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Here is what you said:

This certainly refers to the body of Christ which you have already said could not have begun at Pentecost. All in the body of Christ are certainly all that are in the body of Christ. This does NOT mean that the LORD Jesus Christ cannot service BOTH as the High Priest for Israel AND the head of the body of Christ.

You missed my point. The words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 12:13 are addressed to them that in every place call upon the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor.1:2) so that would include all the Jewish believers and all of the Gentile believers living in the first century. And here again is what he told ALL of them:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

All, not some.