Faith, Not Works, Justifies the Ungodly, Romans 4:5.

[Robert Pate]

It was made in a public forum!

Some people have the courtesy not to but in.

 

[beloved57]

Some people have the courtesy not to but in.

This is a public forum for debate and discussion!

 

[turbosixx]

There is a problem with the book of James.

The book of James is one of the first books of the New Testament.

Many, including James did not understand the Gospel and justification by faith.

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses.

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. Paul brought some Gentile Christians to the church in Jerusalem. James wanted to circumcize them according to Jewish law. This caused a dispute between those who were not Judaizers and those that were.

The whole thing is recorded in Acts Chapter 15. You would do well to read it.

Here are the problems with that reasoning. If you have scripture to prove it, I would be glad to look at it.

Was James an inspired writer? If we can't trust that what he wrote to us is inspired by God, how can we know what is and what isn't?

Also,no where do we see James giving instructions to keep the law of Moses.

I'm familiar with Acts 15. The final conclusion sure was fine with Paul because he went around teaching it.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.


It makes more sense to me that the problem is with your understanding rather than the book of James.

 

[Robert Pate]

Here are the problems with that reasoning. If you have scripture to prove it, I would be glad to look at it.

Was James an inspired writer? If we can't trust that what he wrote to us is inspired by God, how can we know what is and what isn't?

Also,no where do we see James giving instructions to keep the law of Moses.

I'm familiar with Acts 15. The final conclusion sure was fine with Paul because he went around teaching it.

Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.


It makes more sense to me that the problem is with your understanding rather than the book of James.

There is nothing wrong with my understanding.

It is all there in the scriptures if you want the truth.

James was not about to let those Gentiles go without laying more law on them, Acts 15:20, 21.

 

[turbosixx]

There is nothing wrong with my understanding.

It is all there in the scriptures if you want the truth.

James was not about to let those Gentiles go without laying more law on them, Acts 15:20, 21.

Everyone was in agreement with this, even Paul so where is the problem?
Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.

Is the book of James inspired or not?

 

[Robert Pate]

Everyone was in agreement with this, even Paul so where is the problem?
Acts 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem.

Is the book of James inspired or not?

The Bible is a truthful book. It does not hide the sins and the mistakes of God's people.

I am sure that James came into the full revelation of Jesus Christ and his Gospel at a later date.

Everything in the bible is written for our understanding. Even when there are problems amongst the apostles.

 

[turbosixx]

The Bible is a truthful book. It does not hide the sins and the mistakes of God's people.

I am sure that James came into the full revelation of Jesus Christ and his Gospel at a later date.

Everything in the bible is written for our understanding. Even when there are problems amongst the apostles.

So the Holy Spirit allowed James to instruct error and write it down 2,000 years ago. That leaves it to us to determine what is truth and what is not. Unacceptable.

 

[Robert Pate]

So the Holy Spirit allowed James to instruct error and write it down 2,000 years ago. That leaves it to us to determine what is truth and what is not. Unacceptable.

No, the book of James as well as Acts 15 is for enlightment and instruction so that we will not make the same mistakes.

The fact remains that James was a Judaizer, who believed that you must keep the law of Moses.

 

[beloved57]

No, the book of James as well as Acts 15 is for enlightment and instruction so that we will not make the some mistakes.

The fact remains that James was a Judaizer, who believed that you must keep the law of Moses.

False accusation on James, nowhere does scripture state James to be a Judaizer !

 

[Robert Pate]

False accusation on James, nowhere does scripture state James to be a Judaizer !

You have no understanding because you are void of the Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

You have no understanding because you are void of the Spirit.

You just speak evil of an Apostle ! James is an Apostle of Jesus Christ !

 

[turbosixx]

The fact remains that James was a Judaizer, who believed that you must keep the law of Moses.

You haven't proven this point. The one proof you did provide wasn't good because Paul spread that message. If the message was to keep the law, then Paul was a Judaizer as well.

I think there is more proof that Paul was than James.

Acts 16:3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.


Do you have any real proof James taught keeping the law of Moses?

 

[Robert Pate]

You haven't proven this point. The one proof you did provide wasn't good because Paul spread that message. If the message was to keep the law, then Paul was a Judaizer as well.

I think there is more proof that Paul was than James.

Acts 16:3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.


Do you have any real proof James taught keeping the law of Moses?

Acts 21:26 Paul was trying to be... "All things to all men that he might win some". It almost cost him his life.

The scripture stands for itself. If you can't see it thats your problem.

 

[turbosixx]

Acts 21:26 Paul was trying to be... "All things to all men that he might win some". It almost cost him his life.

The scripture stands for itself. If you can't see it thats your problem.

James was doing the same thing. He wasn't teaching keeping the law of Moses but in order to be effective at preaching the gospel he became as a Jew to reach the Jews. You haven’t proven, with scripture, that James was a Judaizer.

James and Romans can be reconciled as written if you understand what Paul is talking about in Romans. Looking at the context, what was the point Paul was making with his statement in Romans 4:5?

 

[Robert Pate]

James was doing the same thing. He wasn't teaching keeping the law of Moses but in order to be effective at preaching the gospel he became as a Jew to reach the Jews. You haven’t proven, with scripture, that James was a Judaizer.

James and Romans can be reconciled as written if you understand what Paul is talking about in Romans. Looking at the context, what was the point Paul was making with his statement in Romans 4:5?

James sent men to spy on Peter. He wanted to see if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11, 12, 13.

Sure enough Peter and Barnabas were eating with those nasty Gentiles. when the Judaizer came in Peter and Barnabas went under the table.

Paul saw the whole thing and had to straighten them out, Galatians 2:14-21.

 

[beloved57]

James sent men to spy on Peter. He wanted to see if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11, 12, 13.

Sure enough Peter and Barnabas were eating with those nasty Gentiles. when the Judaizer came in Peter and Barnabas went under the table.

Paul saw the whole thing and had to straighten them out, Galatians 2:14-21.

More lying on James, what scriptures state that James sent folk to Spy on Peter ?

 

[turbosixx]

James sent men to spy on Peter. He wanted to see if Peter and Barnabas were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11, 12, 13.

Sure enough Peter and Barnabas were eating with those nasty Gentiles. when the Judaizer came in Peter and Barnabas went under the table.

Paul saw the whole thing and had to straighten them out, Galatians 2:14-21.

I agree Peter withdrew himself because of old habits. I don't see where James sent anyone to spy, please show me specificly.

It does say false brethren. Is this a reference to James?
, "4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),"

Before the Peter incident James was in agreement with Paul.
2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Again, there is MORE evidence that Paul kept the law.

 

[Robert Pate]

I agree Peter withdrew himself because of old habits. I don't see where James sent anyone to spy, please show me specificly.

It does say false brethren. Is this a reference to James?
, "4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),"

Before the Peter incident James was in agreement with Paul.
2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Again, there is MORE evidence that Paul kept the law.

Old habits?

Galatians 2:12.

You appear to be dull of hearing.

 

[turbosixx]

Old habits?

Galatians 2:12.

You appear to be dull of hearing.

I must be. I never by the connection before. I'll look at it closer and get back with you.