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Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

Jose Fly

New member
There has been no answer.
Um, yes there was. You asked how those proteins evolved and Barbarian posted an answer.

The entire point here is that not only has there been no answer, there can be no answer. There is no answer. Even the answers to my original question, which I accepted as a means to an end, don't really answer anything. Legs from fins is just another example of the sort of thing I'm talking about. A fish's fin is just a different sort of leg. It's just the sort of leg you'd need to move around in water. It's really just answering the question with the answer, "Legs evolved from other sorts of legs." which isn't an answer at all but it's all the evolutionist has got! I mean that is literally all that they've got! What else could they have? Nothing! There isn't anything else for them to ever have because evolution didn't happen (i.e. reality is what it is)!
This is nothing more than you sticking your fingers in your ears, stamping your little feet, and shouting "LA LA LA LA!! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!"

It's also a confirmation of what I noted at the very outset....your questions were never asked in good faith. But such is the nature of creationism.

It's a contrivance that evolutionists see purely as a result of two things. They're hated of God and confirmation bias.
Since the vast majority of "evolutionists" are theists, why do you equate evolution with atheism?
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Dear Stupid-on-Steroids (Clete),

See what I mean folks?! This HAS TO BE some sort of mental disorder!

No matter how many times the various creationist straw men are corrected, evolution, while mindless and undirected, is far from entirely random and accidental.
This idiotic distinction is PRECISELY the reason I've worded the argument the way I have!

"Using the same sort of processes that evolutionists claim created you and me, you could not ever produce that sentence."
You created a straw man and claim, "(It) is the same... process... evolutionists claim created (humans)". How many more times must you be corrected on your stupidity? While evolution is mindless and undirected, it is far from random and accidental.

In one sentence Clete says, "It has nothing to do with whether I can understand it... I understand it just fine", then almost instantaneously follows up with, "That (evolution) isn't just a little difficult to understand", and (I'm paraphrasing) "It is IMPOSSIBLE (for me) to understand".

You can only find this much stupid-on-steroids at TOL.
The post is still there for everyone to read, moron. Your paraphrase is the only stupidity happening here.

Clete
"That isn't just a little difficult to understand. There isn't hardly anything that you could name or even conceive of that would be more complex than that, whether you understood it or not! -Clete"

Nope. My paraphrase is spot-on.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
It's a contrivance that evolutionists see purely as a result of two things. They're hated of God and confirmation bias.
Since the vast majority of "evolutionists" are theists, why do you equate evolution with atheism?
As an atheist I have an extremely difficult time "hating" something I don't think exists. I hate the creationist's deity the same amount I hate unicorns and pink flightless fairies.
 

6days

New member
Even if they are, the evidence is that transport kinesins evolved from simpler motor kinesins.

Exp Cell Res. 2015 May 15; 334(1): 61–69.
Mitosis, Microtubule Dynamics and the Evolution of Kinesins
Juan Jesus Vicente and Linda Wordeman
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4433793/
[MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION]... Please look over the link Barbarian posted. It is FASCINATING! We have an awesome God who can be seen in the molecular motors... or in the vastness and order of our universe.
Re. the comment that Transport kinesins evolved from "simpler motor kinesins"... you likely see the humor in that. Where did the "simpler" molecular motors come from? Evolutionists will tell you they "self assembled". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_self-assembly

It is interesting that evolutionist often try sell their beliefs by using the word "simple", as above. The more we discover about the genome, the more we see the fingerprint of a Creator.
Recently, scientists decided to model the genome of one of the simplest bacteria. It turns out though, that the genome is anything but simple. There are many biological robots working within the cell of every known organism. Take a look at the simplified drawing on this site, giving us a slight glimpse at the complexity and organization.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...e-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/
In order to just PARTIALLY simulate this bacteria..."It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes."
The article goes on to say.... "On the other hand, the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable...."
Nearly unbelievable... except to those who believe that our God is a God of wonders.
 

Jose Fly

New member
[MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION]... Please look over the link Barbarian posted. It is FASCINATING!
I did manage to read through the paper and I found one interesting part....

"Most of these deep-rooted eukaryotes possessing a broad range of kinesins are pathogens"

Now remember, [MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION] and the other creationists are insisting that there's no way these molecular "legs" came about via evolution, and that they're sooooooo complex, only God could have made them. Given the above, the obvious conclusion is that [MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION] [MENTION=15431]6days[/MENTION] and other creationists must therefore believe that God specifically created these "legs" in disease-causing pathogens, thereby enabling them to cause immense suffering and death.

How about that? :think:
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
The argument among theists boils down to this:

"Is God really sufficiently powerful and wise enough to create a universe in which living things can evolve into different sorts of living things?"

Most creationists don't think that He is. Most other theists accept that God is omnipotent, and therefore certainly can do it, and has done it.
 

JudgeRightly

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Administrator
Super Moderator
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The argument among theists boils down to this:

"Is God really sufficiently powerful and wise enough to create a universe in which living things can evolve into different sorts of living things?"

Most creationists don't think that He is. Most other theists accept that God is omnipotent, and therefore certainly can do it, and has done it.

Except the Bible (and Jesus Himself) discredits anything other than a 6 day creation period, and a 7th day of rest, where on the 6th day He created man, at the beginning of creation. (6 days is not very far from the beginning in the context of 3500 years. However, in the context of billions of years, something occurring a few million years ago would be more towards the end of creation.

So, no, it does not come down to if God is powerful or wise enough, it comes down to whether His creation shows evidence of His hand in creating.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
To make an analogy, if you tossed a bunch of letters in a box and attempted to produce a sentence with them via the same sort of undirected, accidental processes, you'd NEVER succeed.

Let's test that idea. Darwin's theory is that mutation plus natural selection can produce a population that is more fit.

So let's take a sentence (remember, evolution isn't about the origin of life) and see what happens.

Dawkins intends this example to illustrate a common misunderstanding of evolutionary change, i.e. that DNA sequences or organic compounds such as proteins are the result of atoms randomly combining to form more complex structures. In these types of computations, any sequence of amino acids in a protein will be extraordinarily improbable (this is known as Hoyle's fallacy). Rather, evolution proceeds by hill climbing, as in adaptive landscapes.

Dawkins then goes on to show that a process of cumulative selection can take far fewer steps to reach any given target. In Dawkins's words:

We again use our computer monkey, but with a crucial difference in its program. It again begins by choosing a random sequence of 28 letters, just as before ... it duplicates it repeatedly, but with a certain chance of random error – 'mutation' – in the copying. The computer examines the mutant nonsense phrases, the 'progeny' of the original phrase, and chooses the one which, however slightly, most resembles the target phrase, METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.

By repeating the procedure, a randomly generated sequence of 28 letters and spaces will be gradually changed each generation. The sequences progress through each generation:

Generation 01: WDLTMNLT DTJBKWIRZREZLMQCO P [2]
Generation 02: WDLTMNLT DTJBSWIRZREZLMQCO P
Generation 10: MDLDMNLS ITJISWHRZREZ MECS P
Generation 20: MELDINLS IT ISWPRKE Z WECSEL
Generation 30: METHINGS IT ISWLIKE B WECSEL
Generation 40: METHINKS IT IS LIKE I WEASEL
Generation 43: METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program

So clearly, random mutation and natural selection can produce a sentence.

Here's a more difficult challenge, solved by Darwinian processes:

Creatures from primordial silicon – Let Darwinism loose in an electronics lab and just watch what it creates. A lean, mean machine that nobody understands.
“GO!” barks the researcher into the microphone. The oscilloscope in front of
him displays a steady green line across the top of its screen. “Stop!” he says
and the line immediately drops to the bottom.

Between the microphone and the oscilloscope is an electronic circuit that
discriminates between the two words. It puts out 5 volts when it hears “go” and
cuts off the signal when it hears “stop”.

It is unremarkable that a microprocessor can perform such a task—except
in this case. Even though the circuit consists of only a small number of basic
components, the researcher, Adrian Thompson, does not know how it works. He
can’t ask the designer because there wasn’t one. Instead, the circuit evolved
from a “primordial soup” of silicon components guided by the principles of
genetic variation and survival of the fittest.
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...at-nobody-understands-clive-davidson-reports/

The cool thing is, it uses about 1/10 of the components needed in a human-designed device that does the same things. And there are components and circuits that seem to do nothing, but if they are removed, the system doesn't work.

God is a lot smarter than a lot of creationists are willing to let Him be.

I don't care how long you tried it or how many times, you'd never ever produce even one single intelligible sentence.

See above.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Let's test that idea. Darwin's theory is that mutation plus natural selection can produce a population that is more fit.
Well, you likely know this as well as I do, but we don't need to cite analogies, thought exercises, or non-biological demonstrations. Evolutionary mechanisms producing more fit populations is a repeatedly observed and documented fact. As I alluded to earlier, it's easily demonstrated via a single-clone experiment commonly carried out in BIO 100 classes.
 

JudgeRightly

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Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Let's test that idea. Darwin's theory is that mutation plus natural selection can produce a population that is more fit.

So let's take a sentence (remember, evolution isn't about the origin of life) and see what happens.

Dawkins intends this example to illustrate a common misunderstanding of evolutionary change, i.e. that DNA sequences or organic compounds such as proteins are the result of atoms randomly combining to form more complex structures. In these types of computations, any sequence of amino acids in a protein will be extraordinarily improbable (this is known as Hoyle's fallacy). Rather, evolution proceeds by hill climbing, as in adaptive landscapes.

Dawkins then goes on to show that a process of cumulative selection can take far fewer steps to reach any given target. In Dawkins's words:

We again use our computer monkey, but with a crucial difference in its program. It again begins by choosing a random sequence of 28 letters, just as before ... it duplicates it repeatedly, but with a certain chance of random error – 'mutation' – in the copying. The computer examines the mutant nonsense phrases, the 'progeny' of the original phrase, and chooses the one which, however slightly, most resembles the target phrase, METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.

By repeating the procedure, a randomly generated sequence of 28 letters and spaces will be gradually changed each generation. The sequences progress through each generation:

Generation 01: WDLTMNLT DTJBKWIRZREZLMQCO P [2]
Generation 02: WDLTMNLT DTJBSWIRZREZLMQCO P
Generation 10: MDLDMNLS ITJISWHRZREZ MECS P
Generation 20: MELDINLS IT ISWPRKE Z WECSEL
Generation 30: METHINGS IT ISWLIKE B WECSEL
Generation 40: METHINKS IT IS LIKE I WEASEL
Generation 43: METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program

So clearly, random mutation and natural selection can produce a sentence.

Here's a more difficult challenge, solved by Darwinian processes:

Creatures from primordial silicon – Let Darwinism loose in an electronics lab and just watch what it creates. A lean, mean machine that nobody understands.
“GO!” barks the researcher into the microphone. The oscilloscope in front of
him displays a steady green line across the top of its screen. “Stop!” he says
and the line immediately drops to the bottom.

Between the microphone and the oscilloscope is an electronic circuit that
discriminates between the two words. It puts out 5 volts when it hears “go” and
cuts off the signal when it hears “stop”.

It is unremarkable that a microprocessor can perform such a task—except
in this case. Even though the circuit consists of only a small number of basic
components, the researcher, Adrian Thompson, does not know how it works. He
can’t ask the designer because there wasn’t one. Instead, the circuit evolved
from a “primordial soup” of silicon components guided by the principles of
genetic variation and survival of the fittest.
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...at-nobody-understands-clive-davidson-reports/

The cool thing is, it uses about 1/10 of the components needed in a human-designed device that does the same things. And there are components and circuits that seem to do nothing, but if they are removed, the system doesn't work.

God is a lot smarter than a lot of creationists are willing to let Him be.



See above.

See, the problem with such a program (aside from the fact that randomizing programs are never truly random) is that it doesn't account for the necessity for whatever level of organism it is to survive. Any wrong answer and the species dies out because it can't evolve what it needs to survive.

Therefore, 42 of your 43 generations were death sentences for your species, one for each generation.
 

6days

New member
Barbarian said:
"Is God really sufficiently powerful and wise enough to create a universe in which living things can evolve into different sorts of living things?"
Of course God is omnipotent and could have created in any manner consistent with His nature. He tells us in Scripture He created things that would produce after their kind. Cats produce cats. Monkeys produce monkeys. No addition of mutation and time will change monkeys into magicians. Gen. 1:24 “Let the earth produce every sort of animal, each producing offspring of the same kind"
 

6days

New member
In Dawkins's words: We again use our computer monkey, but with a crucial difference in its program. It again begins by choosing a random sequence of 28 letters, just as before ... it duplicates it repeatedly, but with a certain chance of random error – 'mutation' – in the copying. The computer examines the mutant nonsense phrases, the 'progeny' of the original phrase, and chooses the one which, however slightly, most resembles the target phrase, METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL.
.....So clearly, random mutation and natural selection can produce a sentence.
You are so easily taken in by atheist arguments. Even Dawkins himself admitted this was not a realistic picture of evolution.

From God's Word, we know the common ancestry belief system is heretical. God did not create using a process of death and distinctions. Last Adam went to the cross, because first Adam sinned and brought death into the world.
 

6days

New member
Barbarian said:
6days said:
Why are you trying so hard to prove neutral mutations exist when it's impossible to prove. When geneticists graph all mutations on the negative side of zero
Why lie about something so easy to refute?Sci Rep. 2016 Sep 14;6:32700. doi: 10.1038/srep32700.
An APOC3 3'UTR variant associated with plasma triglycerides levels and coronary heart disease by creating a functional miR-4271 binding site.
Hu SL1, Cui GL1, Huang J1, Jiang JG1, Wang DW1.

Abstract
Apolipoprotein C-III (APOC3) is a key regulator of plasma triglycerides levels. Increasing evidence has shown that loss-of-function mutations in APOC3 is associated with reduction in plasma triglycerides levels and will confer a benefit in patients at high risk for cardiovascular disease
Haha... Oh my... I give you credit for trying so hard to defend your beliefs, but... HA HA!

Did you happen to notice the article does not graph mutations? Or what point are you trying to make?

Your article discusses how a loss of function mutation can confer a benefit... but also may increase other risk factors? The pre-existing genetic info has been corrupted... But in any case, What was your point??
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Strong tides may have pushed ancient fish to evolve limbs

By Katherine KorneiFeb. 15, 2018 , 12:00 PM

PORTLAND, OREGON—The evolution of land animals only happened once, some 400 million years ago. But what pressures pushed sea creatures to evolve limbs for walking? Scientists have proposed several theories, including fish that adapted to living in shallow, plant-choked streams prone to flooding and drought. Now, new research suggests that that strong ocean tides may have played a significant role, stranding animals in tidal pools and giving them an incentive to escape back to the sea...

Read more at the source: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...um=facebook-text&utm_campaign=fishlimbs-17962
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Strong tides may have pushed ancient fish to evolve limbs

By Katherine KorneiFeb. 15, 2018 , 12:00 PM

PORTLAND, OREGON—The evolution of land animals only happened once, some 400 million years ago. But what pressures pushed sea creatures to evolve limbs for walking? Scientists have proposed several theories, including fish that adapted to living in shallow, plant-choked streams prone to flooding and drought. Now, new research suggests that that strong ocean tides may have played a significant role, stranding animals in tidal pools and giving them an incentive to escape back to the sea...

Read more at the source: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...um=facebook-text&utm_campaign=fishlimbs-17962


Hahahaha...

Fish 1: Hey Fred! Quick, grow some legs so we can run back into the water where we belong.

Fish 2: Na!! I like it here. I evolved a chair on my butt and a cool umbrella outta my head. Besides, I refuse to be pressured by shallow thinkers and evolving tides. Pass the sunscreen Gill.
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Hahahaha...

Fish 1: Hey Fred! Quick, grow some legs so we can run back into the water where we belong.

Fish 2: Na!! I like it here. I evolved a chair on my butt and a cool umbrella outta my head. Besides, I refuse to be pressured by shallow thinkers and evolving tides. Pass the sunscreen Gill.
:chuckle:
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
[MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION]... Please look over the link Barbarian posted. It is FASCINATING! We have an awesome God who can be seen in the molecular motors... or in the vastness and order of our universe.
Re. the comment that Transport kinesins evolved from "simpler motor kinesins"... you likely see the humor in that. Where did the "simpler" molecular motors come from? Evolutionists will tell you they "self assembled". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_self-assembly

It is interesting that evolutionist often try sell their beliefs by using the word "simple", as above. The more we discover about the genome, the more we see the fingerprint of a Creator.
Recently, scientists decided to model the genome of one of the simplest bacteria. It turns out though, that the genome is anything but simple. There are many biological robots working within the cell of every known organism. Take a look at the simplified drawing on this site, giving us a slight glimpse at the complexity and organization.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...e-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/
In order to just PARTIALLY simulate this bacteria..."It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes."
The article goes on to say.... "On the other hand, the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable...."
Nearly unbelievable... except to those who believe that our God is a God of wonders.

Wow! What a great post.

I love the "self-assembled" hypothesis. How can anyone propose such a thing with a straight face? It just fell into place in just the right spot and just so happened to have a microtubual to "walk" down and some cargo to transport that just happened to be needed at the other end of the mictrotubual.

I wonder if that really do believe it?

Of course, they don't believe it. What they probably do believe is that this molecule self-assembled for no reason and it sat there doing nothing. Generation upon generation of useless self-assembling motor proteins sat around doing zip zero nada until one just happened to do something useful. How the next generation after that knew to do it again is anyone's guess.



In the article from The Atlantic, the line that stuck out to me was...

"We can now simulate most known interactions within the cell: how the code of its DNA becomes proteins, how those proteins interact, and how the cell uses energy."

The article sort of make you think that we know most of what happens inside a cell but I'd wager that we don't know that half of it.


As for the paper that Barbarian posted, it is, as your post suggests, just a way more complex and bloviated example of what I was talking about earlier. It's just replacing one complex system with another. They call it simpler but no matter how far back in time they supposedly go, it never gets to something that is actually simple. Even the simplest forms of these molecules crush their entire theory into powder.
Also, I love sentences like this one....

"However, both Kar3 (a Kinesin-14) and Kip3 (a kinesin-8) have the ability to destabilize MT ends (Sproul et al., 2005), so it is possible that they may have acquired the depolymerization activity to compensate for the lack of Kinesin-13. Alternatively, the kinesin-14, Kar3, may supply depolymerizing activity to functionally subsidize activities controlled by kinesin-13 in other organisms (Saunders et al., 1997)."

I just laugh out loud when I read something like that! "May have acquired"?! How? By accident?

Here I am, a perfectly happy Kar3 or Kip3 molecule, doing my thing. One day I think to myself, "Hey! I need some of the Minesin-13! I wonder how I can get some?"
Then a really long time, perhaps an eon or two, passes and finally I manage to "acquire the depolymerization activity" that I've needed for the last several million generations.

The ludicrous nature of their proposals are just astounding. I'll never understand how they can't see it or why they refuse to acknowledge it when it's pointed out.

Clete
 
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