Evolution... Do we believe?

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Sorry, don't know what you're talking about.

You missed my earlier question: What are the other criteria for determining whether trees and fish are different "kinds"?

:duh: God decided that in the garden. He made the plants first then the fish.
 

rainee

New member
And does that include populations evolving, speciation, and natural selection?

You know that phrase "natural selection" is kind of, how should I say this... A Lie. What it means is WEATHER either kills or it supports life.

Behold: If the climate changes after massive quakes and wipes out dinos, what is that? Natural selection. Ha.

And speciation or population evolving what are these supposedly, I mean, really?
It is us finding out what is or is not similar enough genetically to be called closely related, or us finding out how much something we know is one thing and seeing just how much it can change through no fault of its own... Good Grief.
 

6days

New member
Have you figured out what 'tohu wa-bohu' means?
You must think all the various Bible translation team have it wrong?
Unless I'm mistaken you think it should read that there was chaos.
However.....
NIV
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters

New Living Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth/
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
In Chaldea, from which Abraham came, the creation story Enuma Elish:

The story, one of the oldest, if not the oldest in the world, concerns the birth of the gods and the creation of the universe and human beings. In the beginning there was only undifferentiated water swirling in chaos.

So this is just borrowing symbolism for which the Hebrews would be familiar, to explain God creating everything.
 

6days

New member
In Chaldea, from which Abraham came, the creation story Enuma Elish:

So this is just borrowing symbolism for which the Hebrews would be familiar, to explain God creating everything.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God. (Enuma Elish is not scripture... the Bible is scripture)
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You must think all the various Bible translation team have it wrong?
Unless I'm mistaken you think it should read that there was chaos.
However.....
NIV
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters

New Living Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth/
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters


Good, at least you got started. 1, the first line is a section title like 2:4, 5:1 and many other places in Moses. It is not action in the account.
2, The verb tense for the earth is that tohu wa-bohu was a pre-existing condition.

I mention these things because so much debate on this is either-or, instead of before-after, or first-then later. The text has two completely different indicators before and after the 6 "days."
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
In Chaldea, from which Abraham came, the creation story Enuma Elish:



So this is just borrowing symbolism for which the Hebrews would be familiar, to explain God creating everything.



That's a bit closer Barb, but the way the material is laid out, it means he was the suzerain of the domain (earth). As an example of this, one Babylonian king who made a tunnel aqueduct treated himself to the title creator when the public works project was all done. He had been victorious over the daunting problem of water supply.

So by taking a situation that was totally unfilled and unformed and ending up with a completely formed and filled world 'just right' for mankind, God was a sovereign like no one else, including the ability to set planets as markers. Each human had his image (ie each one is a public notice that it belongs to him) and even in the psyche of each human, each wants to take things that are chaos and make them useful. (There is some competition about the planets/stars from some early Pharoahs claiming to have arranged the position of Orion, which is why the pyramids of Geza have the identical offset layout).
 

Jose Fly

New member
Sure, I did.

This is how I know you're not acting in good faith.

See, when it comes to questions like this, a person who's genuinely participating in a conversation who wants to move the discussion forward will do one of two things. He'll either 1) link to the post where he directly addressed the issue, or 2) re-state his original answer. I've done that many, many times here. The search function at ToL is very good and easy to use, and makes #1 pretty simple, and of course if you already know your answer then #2 is merely a matter of stating it.

OTOH, those who are just playing elementary-level games will post "Sure I did" with no other information and I guess expect the discussion to descend into....

Yes I did.

No you didn't.

Yes I did.

No you didn't.

...ad nauseum. Guess which scenario best describes you Stripe? Now, let's give this one more shot.

Again, what is the difference between "rapid adaptation" and populations evolving via mutation and natural selection?

6days says populations evolve, speciation happens, and natural selection is real. He also says those things are within the framework of the "Biblical model of creation".

Is he wrong?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
This is how I know you're not acting in good faith.

Why? Because you asked a question that was answered and you're pretending it wasn't?

Very early on in that thread, I expressed my disagreement with Six, and soon afterward, he clarified his ideas.

Since then, you've been wailing.
 

Jose Fly

New member
You know that phrase "natural selection" is kind of, how should I say this... A Lie. What it means is WEATHER either kills or it supports life.

Behold: If the climate changes after massive quakes and wipes out dinos, what is that? Natural selection. Ha.

Weather is type of selective force, yes. Predators and food sources can also be selective forces (and many other things). But you do agree it's a real process, right?

And speciation or population evolving what are these supposedly, I mean, really?

Populations evolving means a population changes its genetic makeup over time, and speciation is when a population evolves to the point where a new species is formed. Do you agree that both of those things happen?

It is us finding out what is or is not similar enough genetically to be called closely related, or us finding out how much something we know is one thing and seeing just how much it can change through no fault of its own... Good Grief.

So you do agree that populations evolve "through no fault of its own", correct?
 
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