Eucharist idol exposed by Celiac Disease

clefty

New member
That the Church has to take special action for those suffering from allergies to wheat exposes the idolatry of the Eucharist tradition.

This recently on how careful it must be:

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201..._the_bread_and_wine_for_the_eucharist/1323886


This on the issue of those with allergies:

http://www.hprweb.com/2013/06/celiac-disease-and-holy-communion-a-medical-and-spiritual-dilemma/


The fact that there are allergic reactions to the wheat after the bread is transubstantiated into flesh the Body of Christ entire can either mean His flesh has gluten or the allergen is in the accidents as of course the substance is changed. Right?

HalleluYah that His creation through its process of biology and chemistry reveals this ancient idolatry of man's tradition.

The fact that allergic reactions to gluten occur proves the bread remains bread.

The host must be wheat by the Church's canon law. Rather than change that tradition they insist to make those suffer celiac disease suffer additionally and go without "His real presence"...

And yet the Church made changes to unleavened bread to seperate themselves from the orthodox...
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
This late-breaking bulletin has just been handed to me...

A man in Italy talks to bread. The bread continues to loaf. Film at 11.

#notnews
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
That the Church has to take special action for those suffering from allergies to wheat exposes the idolatry of the Eucharist tradition.

This recently on how careful it must be:

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201..._the_bread_and_wine_for_the_eucharist/1323886


This on the issue of those with allergies:

http://www.hprweb.com/2013/06/celiac-disease-and-holy-communion-a-medical-and-spiritual-dilemma/


The fact that there are allergic reactions to the wheat after the bread is transubstantiated into flesh the Body of Christ entire can either mean His flesh has gluten or the allergen is in the accidents as of course the substance is changed. Right?

HalleluYah that His creation through its process of biology and chemistry reveals this ancient idolatry of man's tradition.

The fact that allergic reactions to gluten occur proves the bread remains bread.

The host must be wheat by the Church's canon law. Rather than change that tradition they insist to make those suffer celiac disease suffer additionally and go without "His real presence"...

And yet the Church made changes to unleavened bread to seperate themselves from the orthodox...

As you must well know, the number priority in the RC is itself, not scripture, that comes a distant third, if at all.
 

clefty

New member
As you must well know, the number priority in the RC is itself, not scripture, that comes a distant third, if at all.

It is odd that He would demand we do something injurious to ourselves.


As if the miracle of transubstantiation can not also prevent an allergic reaction.


What they ascribe to the His last supper is Sacred Tradition or religious peer pressure and is merely man's tradition otherwise known as idolatry,

The passover lambs were killed the following day...
 

clefty

New member
Wholey grain, I'm losing my mind

Crusty and stale


Thing about idols n images

they claim because cherubim were made we can make images too

Once made and put in place those things were viewed only by the high priest

And that only once a year...

As if He abolished His own law with His executive order...
 

clefty

New member
As you must well know, the number priority in the RC is itself, not scripture, that comes a distant third, if at all.

I really did hope someone here would explain to me why the priest would not turn the bread into flesh enough for it not to be an allergenic for someone who with celiac disease.

Why are they withholding His flesh from their flocks?
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
It is odd that He would demand we do something injurious to ourselves.


As if the miracle of transubstantiation can not also prevent an allergic reaction.


What they ascribe to the His last supper is Sacred Tradition or religious peer pressure and is merely man's tradition otherwise known as idolatry,

1 Corinthians 11

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
 

clefty

New member
1 Corinthians 11

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

So because members ate and drank unworthingly they became allergic to the gluten?

Not sure how this text applies to a supposed miracle that completely transforms bread into flesh still responds to the WHEAT...is His flesh made of WHEAT?

Only that would explain why those suffering celiac respond with allergies to it...

Or maybe the bread doesn't turn into flesh?
 

clefty

New member
And don't they get upset when you pocket the blessed host and walk off with it...

Stuart

It does get akward for them:

https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=328042

Does one chew the host or not chew it?

But make sure you swallow the host before it loses its form as bread or else you havent properly received Jesus, in other words dont let Him dissolve completely in your mouth.

Maybe those suffering from celiac should swallow the bread whole to ensure it is flesh and not bread...



Here are further medical vs tradition issues;

You may have heard about a case in the Diocese of Phoenix in which there is controversy over a 10-year old autistic boy’s ability to receive Communion.

The boy’s autism apparently causes him to spit out things with certain textures, and a typical Host has such a texture. Neither can he swallow the Precious Blood, according to his father.

The solution that the family has arrived at is for their son to receive Communion in the form of the Host and, after a few seconds, for the boy’s father to take the Host and consume it himself.

http://jimmyakin.com/2006/03/unusual_canon_l.html
 

Stuu

New member
It does get akward for them:

https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=328042

Does one chew the host or not chew it?

But make sure you swallow the host before it loses its form as bread or else you havent properly received Jesus, in other words dont let Him dissolve completely in your mouth.

Maybe those suffering from celiac should swallow the bread whole to ensure it is flesh and not bread...



Here are further medical vs tradition issues;

You may have heard about a case in the Diocese of Phoenix in which there is controversy over a 10-year old autistic boy’s ability to receive Communion.

The boy’s autism apparently causes him to spit out things with certain textures, and a typical Host has such a texture. Neither can he swallow the Precious Blood, according to his father.

The solution that the family has arrived at is for their son to receive Communion in the form of the Host and, after a few seconds, for the boy’s father to take the Host and consume it himself.

http://jimmyakin.com/2006/03/unusual_canon_l.html
Interesting, and in the case of the chewing controversy, hilarious.

It's not called 'Bells and smells' for nothing!

Stuart
 

clefty

New member
Interesting, and in the case of the chewing controversy, hilarious.

It's not called 'Bells and smells' for nothing!

Stuart

Ha...bells and smells...yes the incense being prayers of to the saints...

Idolatry and its "It was appealing"...Satan knows its through the senses and sensuality and sentimentality which will cause our distraction from hearing the good news and believe without seeing...

Political correctness liberation theology emotionalism and feel good prosperity nonsense et al has only been the work of the counter reformation...
 

jsanford108

New member
I originally was not going to respond to this post, due to the clear bias found within it. However, subsequent posts have convinced me that there should be an intellectual input.

While your premise is interesting, it falls quite flat, on a logical level. Each of the posts, detailing how the Eucharist is "exposed" as a fraud, is really quite silly. One says that because an autistic boy cannot swallow, it exposes the truth. Another, that celiac disease exposes the truth. But allow us to compare these examples, and the logic therein, against other "miracles."

For celiac disease, as the OP pointed out, persons are limited to being able to receive the Host. Of course, the alternative is the Chalice. However, the OP says that "biology" has exposed the truth of the idolatry. Let us utilize this logic, and apply it to the most important event in history, the Resurrection. Biology states that nothing can physically come back from death. Death, biologically, is a final act. An everlasting act. If biology, thus, natural law, restricts all miracles, then Christ, by this logic, did not rise from the dead.

To use the very atheist restrictions of natural law upon the supernatural, you end up denying the abilities of God. It would make sense for an atheist to utilize such logic, as they dismiss supernatural. But for a Christian to utilize such logic contradicts the very core beliefs they should hold, namely the Resurrection.

I know. The first rebuttal will declare "but if it is the 'body of Christ,' how can a person be allergic to it?" Simple. Transubstantiation does not alter the physical properties of matter. The Host will still taste, appear, and have the physical properties of bread. As Christ, God Incarnate, had the physical appearance and properties of man (Thus, being 100% God and 100% Man). If you claim this is possible within the physical incarnation of God, why could He not do this with something as simple as bread?

To the autistic case....

I wish to applaud clefty for actually researching Catholic sources for his information. I believe that is demonstrating an apt sense of research ability.

This claim of "exposing the truth" is less rational than the celiac disease. For it relies on a person's handicap as a base of reason. How could God, being truly present in the bread, allow a person to be unable to consume Him? This goes back to my original reason, relating to celiac disease. But let us apply this logic to other "truths," widely accepted by Protestants. Protestants often cite Romans 3:23 as a means of proving Mary was not full of grace. "For all have sinned." According to Protestants, this means every single individual, without exception. Catholics view this as a widely accepted, and truthful, generalization. All? Really?

One would agree that in order to commit a sinful act, one must have knowledge of their actions, no? Thus, a person must have the cognitive ability to know right from wrong. So, with that, does a mentally handicapped person, incapable of higher cognitive ability, commit sin? Remember, they must do this knowingly, having the ability to discern right from sin. Thus, the "all without exception" rule is broken.

Now, let us apply this to the autistic child being unable to consume the Host. There is no rule that says "all must consume." Anytime consumption of the Host is mentioned, it is a generalization. As evidenced by people with celiac disease, or other mitigating factors. The reason this is, is because common sense prevails. Catholicism knows that there will inevitably be factors that may inhibit a person from full participation in Communion. Thus, the solution being the father being allowed to step in and consume the Host for his son.

Clefty expounds by citing a "controversy" about chewing. There is really no controversy on chewing. The term utilized for reception of the Host is "consume." According to Catholicism, every consecrated Host is to be consumed. By chewing, swallowing (which obviously must be done), etc. It is a matter of respect and obedience. Naturally, Catholics are angered by people who would not consume the Host, stick it in their pocket, and walk away. Obedience to Christ is to "eat," not walk away. It is also viewed as the Living Body of Christ. So, to be so disrespectful as to place it in one's pocket is blasphemous. Satanists, for their black masses, try to obtain a consecrated host, in order to commit vile acts against it (such as ejaculate on it, stab it, mutilate it, etc.). Why would Satanists, clearly opposed to Christianity, treat a mere piece of bread in such a manner, unless they too believed it to be more than bread?
 

clefty

New member
The first rebuttal will declare "but if it is the 'body of Christ,' how can a person be allergic to it?" Simple. Transubstantiation does not alter the physical properties of matter. The Host will still taste, appear, and have the physical properties of bread.

...so you must argue the allergen is in the aesthetics of the bread...so what it looks like causes an allergic response?

I understand pagan thought helps with its Aristotelian accidents and substance but the body itself by its chemistry and biological process of digestion is still detecting it as wheat gluten...not flesh...it remains bread not because of its form but its substance. The substance should have been changed from bread into flesh (but yes of course still looking like bread)

Why cant this miracle (yes extra biological or super natural power) be more complete to change/remove the allergen...the allergen resides in the thing which makes the thing the thing not its appearance affect or accident but its essence...flesh or bread...you claim it is made flesh miraculously then it should be digested as flesh

As Christ, God Incarnate, had the physical appearance and properties of man (Thus, being 100% God and 100% Man). If you claim this is possible within the physical incarnation of God, why could He not do this with something as simple as bread?
Sure its simple and He could do it but He didnt and doesnt...is why the host is still bread and contains an allergen and is not flesh which would not contain an allergen...why is this miracle so sloppy incomplete?

Death is indeed biological and the decay which follows is as well...that's why the tests were necessary for the disbelieving disciples...they had to see Him alive...hear Him...touch Him...watch Him eat

That is why the resurrection is a miracle...complete miracle and completed...tested and proven...the host remaining still an allergen is His not making a miracle complete...making the bread completely into flesh would be an easy miracle...but CILIAC disease still detects it as bread and not transformed into flesh as the allergen is in the substance and not in its accidents...so He didnt and doesnt do this miracle...

As to your all have sinned being a generalization...there is a reason you baptize infants which have less than little understanding of sin
 

jsanford108

New member
Eucharist idol exposed by Celiac Disease

...so you must argue the allergen is in the aesthetics of the bread...so what it looks like causes an allergic response?

I understand pagan thought helps with its Aristotelian accidents and substance but the body itself by its chemistry and biological process of digestion is still detecting it as wheat gluten...not flesh...it remains bread not because of its form but its substance. The substance should have been changed from bread into flesh (but yes of course still looking like bread)

Why cant this miracle (yes extra biological or super natural power) be more complete to change/remove the allergen...the allergen resides in the thing which makes the thing the thing not its appearance affect or accident but its essence...flesh or bread...you claim it is made flesh miraculously then it should be digested as flesh

Sure its simple and He could do it but He didnt and doesnt...is why the host is still bread and contains an allergen and is not flesh which would not contain an allergen...why is this miracle so sloppy incomplete?

Death is indeed biological and the decay which follows is as well...that's why the tests were necessary for the disbelieving disciples...they had to see Him alive...hear Him...touch Him...watch Him eat

That is why the resurrection is a miracle...complete miracle and completed...tested and proven...the host remaining still an allergen is His not making a miracle complete...making the bread completely into flesh would be an easy miracle...but CILIAC disease still detects it as bread and not transformed into flesh as the allergen is in the substance and not in its accidents...so He didnt and doesnt do this miracle...

As to your all have sinned being a generalization...there is a reason you baptize infants which have less than little understanding of sin

You are clever to add the subtle "pagan" part. Well played. But alas....

You are failing to understand Transubstantiation. And I can understand, because it defies nature. But that is what makes something "supernatural" (supernatural translates into "beyond the natural"). Thus, the bread will have all the physical properties, including the allergens, but will be miraculously the Flesh. As Christ, before the Crucifixion, if examined medically and scientifically would appear a normal human. One would not expect to find a "God particle" or supernatural matter. He was 100% human. But we know that He was also God. God being undetectable, yet ever Present. The same can be attributed to a consecrated host.

Now, a very good argument, is that just because Christ can do something, He doesn't always do it. A very valid argument, especially given your perspective. And I would say that this argument is true for many questions that arise (such as "why does God not eliminate evil right now"). Your claim is that Christ just doesn't allow Himself to become consumable. However, I disagree, as evidence by the Gospel (assuming that the Gospel is accepted by you as inerrant evidence). If you read John 6, Christ explicitly mentions the eating and drinking of His Body and Blood. In John 13, we have the Last Supper. If we examine all of John's Gospel, we see that anytime Christ speaks figuratively, clarification is given. If not by Christ, then by the author. Yet, in John 6 and 13, no such clarification of figurative speech is provided. Thus, it would stand that the author knew these to be as they were received literally. After all, many of the followers who heard these things that Christ spoke of left Him, because they knew He spoke of literally eating His Flesh. If they misunderstood, why would Christ let them walk away? Christ never let someone walk away due to misunderstanding (evidenced within all the Gospels).

You also submit that the Resurrection is a "tested" miracle. It was evidenced by many, correct? Even Roman histories (pagan) describe the mystery of Christ's Body being gone from the tomb, and hundreds bearing witness to seeing the risen Christ. Such early letters also bear witness to the Eucharist, citing that Christians should be persecuted for "gathering to eat the flesh of their god." They understood that early Christians believed in the literal Body being consumed in Communion.

If you require more scientific evidence, there is the Miracle of Lanciano. I will provide a link for you. A priest, who did not believe in Transubstantiation, was convinced by the Bread and Wine changing physically (in all aesthetics) into Flesh and Blood.

Thus, your testing of sources, witness, and science does point to Eucharistic truth.

As far as infant baptism, I can address that if you wish; but I believe it would be more prudent to discuss one topic at a time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

clefty

New member
You are clever to add the subtle "pagan" part. Well played. But alas....
relying on pagan thought to explain Him His way is at best awkward...leave it to a mystery...mysteries are needed see rev 17

You are failing to understand Transubstantiation. And I can understand, because it defies nature. But that is what makes something "supernatural" (supernatural translates into "beyond the natural"). Thus, the bread will have all the physical properties, including the allergens, but will be miraculously the Flesh.
I understand transubstantiation, I also believe in miracles...but what you describe is not trans enough...the bread BECOMES flesh is the proper teaching...that it is a complete trans of the substances...

your miracle sounds more like consubstantiation retaining all the physical properties but miraculously remains flesh too...that is NOT Church teaching...it becomes flesh with the appearance/accidents/aesthetics of bread

but our digestive system doesnt have eyes to see it as flesh or touch sensations to feel it as flesh etc and is why the biological and chemical process of digestion has the body respond to it (the Host) now supposedly flesh as what it remains...bread unchanged...and not changed trans-ed into another substance flesh which has no gluten

You can't convince me that the allergen remains in what it looks like.

As Christ, before the Crucifixion, if examined medically and scientifically would appear a normal human. One would not expect to find a "God particle" or supernatural matter. He was 100% human. But we know that He was also God. God being undetectable, yet ever Present. The same can be attributed to a consecrated host.
yes Consubstantiation was "developed" to argue this "duality" this "con" of Christ...and developed in hopes to drag it into yet another catagory...


Now, a very good argument, is that just because Christ can do something, He doesn't always do it. A very valid argument, especially given your perspective. And I would say that this argument is true for many questions that arise (such as "why does God not eliminate evil right now").
all very interesting but not only cant He do some things (make you believe) He WONT (breaking His Father's Law and especially to keep the gospel of salvation its method and application a mystery)

Your claim is that Christ just doesn't allow Himself to become consumable. However, I disagree, as evidence by the Gospel (assuming that the Gospel is accepted by you as inerrant evidence). If you read John 6, Christ explicitly mentions the eating and drinking of His Body and Blood.
He clearly clarifies it to His disciples because despite staying with Him they murmur at this hard saying and He asks why they are offended/troubled with the idea they have to eat Him...oh no wait He clarifies it "THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING" wow...duh...The Spirit gives life not flesh (the gnawing of it) but the words He speaks they are life...just as the Spirit causes flesh to ascend where He was before...so its not the FLESH but the WORDS/SPIRIT... THEY are the life...

In John 13, we have the Last Supper.
ummm...John 13 the only bread eaten is bread He handed to Judas...He dipped bread not flesh...
If we examine all of John's Gospel, we see that anytime Christ speaks figuratively, clarification is given. If not by Christ, then by the author. Yet, in John 6 and 13, no such clarification of figurative speech is provided.
wut? And I just showed you where He clarified to the murmuring disciples reluctant to cannibalize Him that it was the Words He spoke which was the Life as flesh profits NOTHING but it is the Spirit...

Thus, it would stand that the author knew these to be as they were received literally. After all, many of the followers who heard these things that Christ spoke of left Him, because they knew He spoke of literally eating His Flesh. If they misunderstood, why would Christ let them walk away? Christ never let someone walk away due to misunderstanding (evidenced within all the Gospels).
He let many walk away...few were with Him at the end... the poor disciples even misunderstood Him after He rose from the dead...that glory of Israel thingy

You also submit that the Resurrection is a "tested" miracle. It was evidenced by many, correct? Even Roman histories (pagan) describe the mystery of Christ's Body being gone from the tomb, and hundreds bearing witness to seeing the risen Christ. Such early letters also bear witness to the Eucharist, citing that Christians should be persecuted for "gathering to eat the flesh of their god." They understood that early Christians believed in the literal Body being consumed in Communion.
not my fault wolves in sheep clothing came in to the 1st century fold to spread lies and deception...even in Acts false witnesses attempted to slander Paul with false testimony that he taught the Law was changed...

The 2000 year old slander continues and includes recent debates I have seen on youtube where claims by "learned defenders of the Church" emphatically insist He made cannibalism ok by making all meats clean in Mark 7...it is that rediculous

If you require more scientific evidence, there is the Miracle of Lanciano. I will provide a link for you. A priest, who did not believe in Transubstantiation, was convinced by the Bread and Wine changing physically (in all aesthetics) into Flesh and Blood.
well then that Host could be eaten with no allergic reaction to gluten as it wouldnt exist...it was transubstantiated...from actual bread to actually meat

Thus, your testing of sources, witness, and science does point to Eucharistic truth.

As far as infant baptism, I can address that if you wish; but I believe it would be more prudent to discuss one topic at a time.
yes yes...one Church error at a time please...
 
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