Establishment of the Identity of Christ and The Destruction of the Temple

[freelight]

LA closed that thread again, (see my previous post above herein).

That's because we've made a rational, scholarly and logical attempt to bring a more holistic, comprehensive understanding of 'atonement' to the fore, which does NOT require a strict penal substitutionary concept, which is a more later development in church doctrine. 'Atonement' itself is a wonderful and multi-dimensional subject, which can include various facets and features, so that it cannot really be limited to any one narrow dogmatic representation.

Besides the 'Christus Victor' view there is also the 'Moral influence' or 'Example' theory, which sees the atonement as exemplary,...for the Messiah still calls us to walk in the path of righteousness (right doing), to FOLLOW after his example. - all other atonement concepts are theoretical,....while true religion calls for a practical application of the model, into real life experience. Jesus did emphasize DOING the Father's will. Jesus did NOT do it all for us,...He came to SHOW and LEAD the way as well.

 

[daqq]

That's because we've made a rational, scholarly and logical attempt to bring a more holistic, comprehensive understanding of 'atonement' to the fore, which does NOT require a strict penal substitutionary concept, which is a more later development in church doctrine. 'Atonement' itself is a wonderful and multi-dimensional subject, which can include various facets and features, so that it cannot really be limited to any one narrow dogmatic representation.

Besides the 'Christus Victor' view there is also the 'Moral influence' or 'Example' theory, which sees the atonement as exemplary,...for the Messiah still calls us to walk in the path of righteousness (right doing), to FOLLOW after his example. - all other atonement concepts are theoretical,....while true religion calls for a practical application of the model, into real life experience. Jesus did emphasize DOING the Father's will. Jesus did NOT do it all for us,...He came to SHOW and LEAD the way as well.

"Penal substitution" portrays the Father as an angry vengeful ogre. The Master expounds forgiveness in the "Lord's Prayer", in Matthew 6:8-15, and confirms that teaching again in the parable of Matthew 18:21-35.

Matthew 6:8-15 ASV
8 Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18:32-35 ASV
32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me:
33 shouldest not thou also have had mercy on thy fellow-servant, even as I had mercy on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due.
35 So shall also my heavenly Father do unto you, if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

It is as simple as that, no if's, and's, or but's about it, if you want to be forgiven by your heavenly Father then you must forgive others their trespasses against you, period. And this is "the Law of Liberty" which the epistle of James speaks about:

James 2:12-13 ASV
12 So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

Mercy triumphs over judgment because to the one who has shown mercy, mercy shall be shown, but to the one who has shown no mercy, no mercy shall be shown, period. This therefore is indeed the "Law of Liberty" because even when we stumble, (as we immerse into the Torah, see the preceding passage in the James reference), we are forgiven when we make mistakes in understanding the Torah of Elohim, that is, so long as we are forgiving toward others. We therefore have no fear of making an honest mistake when learning the Torah which is the Teaching of the Father. He is not some angry ogre who will exact revenge for every misstep as modern Christianity has portrayed Him, (mainly due to their deep-seated and hidden hatred for the Torah). According to the Master himself, in the "Lord's Prayer" passage quoted above, we are forgiven when we ask; not because some blood was shed, but because we forgive others their trespasses against us. This is the liberty and freedom we have in Messiah and it translates into the ability to walk the Torah in the spiritual way in which it was intended without fear of retribution when we stumble in our learning. The fear has been removed: but for those who judge and do not forgive, (against the clear Testimony of the Messiah), they are already under the law for doing what they do, and they should fear, especially when they run around judging others in forums such as this pretending to have something they clearly do not have.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Guys,

Still working your way to Heaven I see.

No amount of self improvement will get you there without recognizing and appreciating what it cost Jesus at the cross of calvary.

If He has not shown you that then it is impossible for you to be saved.

It is more than likely that you can not face your own spiritual death in being crucified with Him.

It is like a bride to be who in counting the cost to her own life in becoming a wife, turns back and devises some excuse to cover her shame.

She loves herself more than Christ.

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


LA

 

[daqq]

Guys,

Still working your way to Heaven I see.

No amount of self improvement will get you there without recognizing and appreciating what it cost Jesus at the cross of calvary.

If He has not shown you that then it is impossible for you to be saved.

It is more than likely that you can not face your own spiritual death in being crucified with Him.

It is like a bride to be who in counting the cost to her own life in becoming a wife, turns back and devises some excuse to cover her shame.

She loves herself more than Christ.

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


LA

Quoting scripture without any understanding of what it means, as you do, is meaningless and pointless. Jerusalem of above is our mother-covenant. That means the daughter of Jerusalem is the allegorical new covenant. The Master already has "the bride" when he enters into Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday", just as the Gospel of Matthew states, (for the prophecy of Zec 9:9 was fulfilled in that occasion). Likewise Yohanan the Immerser tells you that the Master had the bride given to him from the heavens, from above, (John 3:27-36). You are not a bride except in your own vain imagination because you do not understand the scripture even though these things also have already been explained to you before, (and I see no reason to go over it all again in depth with you in this thread). He was not ashamed to call those willing to become sanctified his BRETHREN, not his bride. You therefore must become a son; and therefore I suggest, again, that you stop seeing everything through the eyes and mind of the flesh and carnal outward man. As for being crucified with Messiah you cannot do it because you do not understand or believe his parables which show you how to do it, (which Paul often expounds though most are not even aware).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

As for being crucified with Messiah you cannot do it because you do not understand or believe his parables which show you how to do it, (which Paul often expounds though most are not even aware).

As the reader can see, you are trying to do something yourself which Christ has done for the saved, by effecting the atonement on His cross.

not yours.

Keep working in unbelief.

LA

 

[daqq]

As the reader can see, you are trying to do something yourself which Christ has done for the saved, by effecting the atonement on His cross.

not yours.

Keep working in unbelief.

LA

As the reader can see, LA has no clue what being crucified with Messiah means, and neither does she understand his parables and teachings: for he nowhere tells anyone that he is going to cut off their right hand, or foot, or pluck out their evil eye for them. For the same reason LA cannot contain her lying tongue which is kindled by the fire of Gehenna according to Yaakob. :chuckle:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

As the reader can see, LA has no clue what being crucified with Messiah means, and neither does she understand his parables and teachings: for he nowhere tells anyone that he is going to cut off their right hand, or foot, or pluck out their evil eye for them. For the same reason LA cannot contain her lying tongue which is kindled by the fire of Gehenna according to Yaakob. :chuckle:

Jesus was instructing the believers who were justified by Jesus blood.

You are not.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

LA

 

[daqq]

Jesus was instructing the believers who were justified by Jesus blood.

You are not.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

LA

Again you are just making your own judgment and tossing in a false accusation based on your own faulty judgment, which means your accusation is a lie, because I have already explained much of my atonement beliefs to you from the scripture. I have never denied the atonement of Messiah, not even the atonement of his blood, but I have proven to you from the scripture what his blood is and you do not believe it. That is not my problem but it does not make me a denier of the atonement of Messiah. However, since you deny the Testimony of Messiah that has been quoted to you many times over, and especially in your own thread on atonement, you therefore trample the blood of Messiah which is his Testimony which is the Spirit of Grace. You also trample his blood every time you falsely judge me and then lie about me even after I have explained my position to you with and from the scripture many times; for the Messiah plainly tells you not to judge, lest you be judged. Your unbelief has blinded you and that is proven and shown by your refusal to answer what has already been presented already here in this thread, and by your cowardly shutting down your own call out thread so that you do not have to answer your own accusations therein, or answer to the scripture that is posted therein. Your accusations are already proven long ago to be lies. You only seek to justify yourself and your beliefs at my expense: for you deny that "Jesus was God" before Calvary and say that he was 100% man. Therefore you need his blood to be understood the way your carnal mind demands. You are a theoretical cannibal teaching theoretical cannibalism. God is not a man. No one has seen or beheld God at any time.

 

[Epoisses]

Guys,

Still working your way to Heaven I see.

No amount of self improvement will get you there without recognizing and appreciating what it cost Jesus at the cross of calvary.

If He has not shown you that then it is impossible for you to be saved.

It is more than likely that you can not face your own spiritual death in being crucified with Him.

It is like a bride to be who in counting the cost to her own life in becoming a wife, turns back and devises some excuse to cover her shame.

She loves herself more than Christ.

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.


LA

Amen. Daqq is the ultimate self-improvement Tony Robbins guru and so are most pastors nowadays.

 

[daqq]

Amen. Daqq is the ultimate self-improvement Tony Robbins guru and so are most pastors nowadays.

The Testimony of the Messiah whom you claim to know and worship is what delivers you and makes you pleasing to the Father, but you have to be willing to live, walk, and abide in that holy Testimony, which means to take up your own stake and crucify the old man of the flesh mindset: and if not, then you are not his because you do not have his Testimony-Word abiding in you, and you then are nothing more than a fraudulent "namer and claimer" pretending to know the Messiah, one who claims to be something they do not even truly understand what it means to be. It is as simple as that, and you, like LA, have denied the Testimony of the Messiah on many occasions already, and you also blasphemed my heavenly Father by saying I believe and teach doctrines of devils when I said what I said from the scripture with scripture.

 

[freelight]

Amen. Daqq is the ultimate self-improvement Tony Robbins guru and so are most pastors nowadays.

Faith without works is dead.

Jesus said those who DO the will of God shall enter into the kingdom.

A tree is known by its fruit.

 

[daqq]

Faith without works is dead.

Jesus said those who DO the will of God shall enter into the kingdom.

A tree is known by its fruit.

Amen, and the scripture tells us what is "the will of Elohim", and that is to cut off sin from ourselves and our own "members", the "members of our own households", which accusers of the brethren refuse to do because when they accuse, and especially falsely, they show that they themselves are being convicted of their evil deeds by what others have said from the scripture. And without doing the will of Elohim one can neither become sanctified nor receive the Promise:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

They despise Elohim in their very own words, deeds, and false accusations right here before all, boasting themselves to already have been "saved" while not having any clue what that really even means because their preachers and teachers, which they have heaped to themselves and their itching ears, have lied to them.

 

[Epoisses]

Faith without works is dead.

Jesus said those who DO the will of God shall enter into the kingdom.

A tree is known by its fruit.

Works without faith are dead and those are all that Daqq the alien has!

 

[Epoisses]

Amen, and the scripture tells us what is "the will of Elohim", and that is to cut off sin from ourselves and our own "members", the "members of our own households", which accusers of the brethren refuse to do because when they accuse, and especially falsely, they show that they themselves are being convicted of their evil deeds by what others have said from the scripture. And without doing the will of Elohim one can neither become sanctified nor receive the Promise:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

They despise Elohim in their very own words, deeds, and false accusations right here before all, boasting themselves to already have been "saved" while not having any clue what that really even means because their preachers and teachers, which they have heaped to themselves and their itching ears, have lied to them.

Daqq is cutoff from grace and everyone knows it except him!

 

[Epoisses]

People like Daqq always derail a perfectly good thread. At least Northwye can communicate coherently.

 

[daqq]

Daqq is cutoff from grace and everyone knows it except him!

Again, the Testimony of the Messiah is the Spirit of Grace, Heb 10:29, and you trample his Testimony and therefore you trample his blood and the Spirit of Grace.

 

[daqq]

People like Daqq always derail a perfectly good thread. At least Northwye can communicate coherently.

Nope, false accusers such as you and LA are always the ones who derail threads because you make the conversation into personal assaults by way of your judging others in opposition to the Testimony of the Messiah whom you claim to know and worship. If you claim he is God, and you claim to worship him, then why do you not believe and do what he says? Why do you continually trample his Testimony which is the Spirit of Grace? He plainly tells you that his WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE: so why do you not heed the words of the one whom you claim to worship as God? The only legitimate answer is that you are a fraud claiming to be something you are not and claiming to know and understand things which you have no clue about, for as Freelight said when he quoted scripture: the tree is known by its fruit, and your fruit is evil.

 

[Epoisses]

This thread is about the temple Daqq, can't you read?

 

[freelight]

Amen, and the scripture tells us what is "the will of Elohim", and that is to cut off sin from ourselves and our own "members", the "members of our own households", which accusers of the brethren refuse to do because when they accuse, and especially falsely, they show that they themselves are being convicted of their evil deeds by what others have said from the scripture. And without doing the will of Elohim one can neither become sanctified nor receive the Promise:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 KJV
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

They despise Elohim in their very own words, deeds, and false accusations right here before all, boasting themselves to already have been "saved" while not having any clue what that really even means because their preachers and teachers, which they have heaped to themselves and their itching ears, have lied to them.

Its sad that some think God does everything for them....for that would negate self-responsibility, free will and learning (which includes 'earning'). It would be satans delight to maintain such a belief system....by which the soul sabotages itself.

 

[Epoisses]

Its sad that some think God does everything for them....for that would negate self-responsibility, free will and learning (which includes 'earning'). It would be satans delight to maintain such a belief system....by which the soul sabotages itself.

Earning is what the world teaches, Freelight. Christianity is not the same! Work hard and make something of yourself, Freelight. You don't need Christ just believe in yourself. Ever hear those lies before?