Eliminating Dispensationalism

[Jacob]

What kind of dispie were you?

Shalom.

I believe that you are asking me this. I grew up under premillenial pretribulation rapture dispensationalism. I know some about the midtribulation and posttribulation views. I do not follow or believe any of it. I also have questions about how we should correctly see the thousand years, the Millennium, according to scripture, possibly with respect to known Jewish thought, or that which belongs to Judaism (I am Jewish and follow Judaism, observing Torah), Biblically, or, that is, in truth. I do not want anything false. I do not see a temple here necessarily, nor many resurrection views. I am not Amillenial (Amillenialism) and neither do I hold the PostMillenial (PostMillenialism) view. I was a Christian. I am a Jew. I am Jewish. I am of Israel. I follow, observe, or adhere to Judaism. I am a proselyte and a convert. I read, study, observe, and teach Torah. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation. I believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God. The new covenant, for the house of Israel and the house of Judah, is God's law written on minds and hearts. It is in Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua Messiah, Jesus the Christ.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[musterion]

Shalom.

I believe that you are asking me this. I grew up under premillenial pretribulation rapture dispensationalism.

Mid-Acts? Acts 2? Acts 28?

If you were a dispie, you know which one you were. Which were you?

 

[Jacob]

That is what the German leadership said at the Nuremberg Trials. You need to get out more.

Shalom.

I am not German. I am a citizen of the United States of America. I am a Jew, Jewish, of Israel, and I observe, adhere to, or follow Judaism, as a proselyte and a convert. I read, study, observe, and teach Torah. I cannot agree to something that I do not know to be true. The only option to answering this way is leaving something out of my response or not answering. I believe that an answer is better, but I was also making a statement.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

Mid-Acts? Acts 2? Acts 28?

If you were a dispie, you know which one you were. Which were you?

Shalom.

I grew up under dispensationalism as Plymouth Brethren or non-denominational or Brethren at Desert Moines Gospel Chapel in Des Moines, Washington. I have heard of what you are talking about, but possibly not here (there). I may not have ever picked one of these. I rejected dispensationalism, and it may have related to reading Matthew 5:17-20.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[musterion]

Shalom.

I grew up under dispensationalism as Plymouth Brethren or non-denominational or Brethren at Desert Moines Gospel Chapel in Des Moines, Washington. I have heard of what you are talking about, but possibly not here (there). I may not have ever picked one of these. I rejected dispensationalism, and it may have related to reading Matthew 5:17-20.

Shalom.

Jacob

What exactly did they tell you, at the time, that you had to know and believe to be saved?

 

[john w]

Shalom.

I am not German. I am a citizen of the United States of America. I am a Jew, Jewish, of Israel, and I observe, adhere to, or follow Judaism, as a proselyte and a convert. I read, study, observe, and teach Torah. I cannot agree to something that I do not know to be true. The only option to answering this way is leaving something out of my response or not answering. I believe that an answer is better, but I was also making a statement.

Shalom.

Jacob

What a mess...You missed it.


". He is a satanic Preterist troll, besides being an admitted, on record anti-Semite, admitted hater of Israel, Jews."-me


You:"I still cannot agree with you. I have not witnessed any of what you are saying."


That is what the German leadership said at the Nuremberg Trials. You need to get out more.

 

[Jacob]

What exactly did they tell you, at the time, that you had to know and believe to be saved?

Shalom.

I do not even know what you are asking me. What would dispensationalism have to do with how a person is saved?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[tetelestai]

I rejected dispensationalism, and it may have related to reading Matthew 5:17-20.

I can see how this Matt 5 passage gave you problems.

The problem with Dispensationalism is that it can't stand the test of scripture.

You're right, if heaven and earth didn't pass away, then the law of Moses is fully in place right now today.

Dispensationalism teaches that heaven and earth did NOT pass away, but at the same time, it claims the law of Moses is not in place today.

The phrase "heavens and earth" in the Matt 5 passage refers to the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was in place until 70AD. Since 70AD, the New Covenant has been in place, and the Law of Moses is no longer in place, because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the seven feasts, the last feast, the Feast of Tabernacles(Sukkot) was fulfilled in 70AD.

 

[Clete]

Shalom.

As I start this thread in the United States of America, where I live and where I am a citizen, it is Sheni, Ziv 12, day.

I am a Jew, of Israel, Jewish, as a proselyte and a convert. I used to be a Christian Dispensationalist. There are some things or views of premillenial dispensationalism that I did not find in scripture, that are still a part of my mind. They need to be cleared up. I was pretribulation rapture, by what I was taught. I do not accept a seven year tribulation preceding a millennium.

How do you replace false thoughts or ideas with that which is true? Is there a process for this? Can you exchange one thought for another?

I read, study, observe, and teach (others) Torah. I desire that others would know about God's commands. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation.

Shalom.

Jacob

Your post is self-contradictory. You want to know how to reject ideas that you've already rejected.

There are the pillars upon which any true thought in your head (that isn't there by accident) rests.

• The fear of God. Knowing that you will give an account for what you accept as true before a righteous God keeps things in perspective.
  
• Logos: AKA, Sound reason. Everything that is, is. Truth claims are either true or they are false (given a particular context). Two truth claims that contradict each other cannot both be true (given a particular context).
  
• The Word of God: AKA the Bible.

Take away any one of the three and error, falsehood and foolishness is the result to one degree or another.

The problem for you is that the consistent application of those three things will require you to toss large portions of your beliefs. You will never succeed doing it the way your opening posts suggests. The problem has nothing to do with dispensationalism per se and it certainly hasn't anything to do with something as specific as the tribulation or the rapture. The problem you are describing has to do with your paradigm. You reject the whole of dispensationalism on the basis of a hand full of specific doctrines, not because those doctrines cannot be found in the scripture but because your paradigm forces you to do so (usually unconsciously). Indeed, there are books that would stack to the Moon written about the biblical support for the very doctrines you claim to be unable to find. The reason you don't find them is because of YOUR paradigm, not because the doctrines aren't there. It is also true that the reason the authors of all those books do find them is because of their paradigm. Until you gain the courage to ask questions about how to know that your paradigm is in keeping with reality, which requires, in advance, a willingness to reject your paradigm if you don't get the right answers, you'll never get close to knowing for sure that what you believe is right. Almost no one knows how to even begin such a process and far fewer than that are willing to make the attempt. Most are happy to cherry pick their doctrines, accepting the ones that they like and rejecting the ones that they don't without a moment's thought about why they like some doctrines and don't like others, nevermind looking to see if there is an underlying pattern.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[musterion]

Shalom.

I do not even know what you are asking me. What would dispensationalism have to do with how a person is saved?

Shalom.

Jacob

What did they (the people you were with when you were a dispie) preach that the lost needed to know, believe or do to be forgiven and saved?

 

[Jacob]

What a mess...You missed it.


". He is a satanic Preterist troll, besides being an admitted, on record anti-Semite, admitted hater of Israel, Jews."-me


You:"I still cannot agree with you. I have not witnessed any of what you are saying."


That is what the German leadership said at the Nuremberg Trials. You need to get out more.

Shalom.

Maybe what you said will help someone. Was this that someone needed the whole story? You posted to me. I am either Israel or Israel and the United States of America, as I am a citizen of the United States of America. My last name is a German last name, but I am not German. I believe that we were out before Hitler. Are you making a statement about the German leadership at the Nuremberg trials, the Nuremberg trials, witnesses in trials, witnesses according to Torah or the Talmud, ignorance, feigned ignorance or feigning ignorance, deception, war crimes and their punishment or the lack thereof (I do not know), or ethics, finding out, learning, increasing your knowledge, standing up for those who are hurt by others, doing something about something or doing something about what is wrong or things that are wrong, or being sheltered or a need to get out more pertaining to ethics and world history?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

I can see how this Matt 5 passage gave you problems.

The problem with Dispensationalism is that it can't stand the test of scripture.

You're right, if heaven and earth didn't pass away, then the law of Moses is fully in place right now today.

Dispensationalism teaches that heaven and earth did NOT pass away, but at the same time, it claims the law of Moses is not in place today.

The phrase "heavens and earth" in the Matt 5 passage refers to the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was in place until 70AD. Since 70AD, the New Covenant has been in place, and the Law of Moses is no longer in place, because it was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus fulfilled the seven feasts, the last feast, the Feast of Tabernacles(Sukkot) was fulfilled in 70AD.

Shalom.

Your view is not my view. I don't hold to a view of the Old Covenant that it ended and heaven and earth passed away in 70 AD.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[musterion]

Jacob,

If someone had asked you, when you were a dispie, "What must I do to be saved?" what would you have told them?

 

[Jacob]

Your post is self-contradictory. You want to know how to reject ideas that you've already rejected.

There are the pillars upon which any true thought in your head (that isn't there by accident) rests.

• The fear of God. Knowing that you will give an account for what you accept as true before a righteous God keeps things in perspective.
  
• Logos: AKA, Sound reason. Everything that is, is. Truth claims are either true or they are false (given a particular context). Two truth claims that contradict each other cannot both be true (given a particular context).
  
• The Word of God: AKA the Bible.

Take away any one of the three and error, falsehood and foolishness is the result to one degree or another.

The problem for you is that the consistent application of those three things will require you to toss large portions of your beliefs. You will never succeed doing it the way your opening posts suggests. The problem has nothing to do with dispensationalism per se and it certainly hasn't anything to do with something as specific as the tribulation or the rapture. The problem you are describing has to do with your paradigm. You reject the whole of dispensationalism on the basis of a hand full of specific doctrines, not because those doctrines cannot be found in the scripture but because your paradigm forces you to do so (usually unconsciously). Indeed, there are books that would stack to the Moon written about the biblical support for the very doctrines you claim to be unable to find. The reason you don't find them is because of YOUR paradigm, not because the doctrines aren't there. It is also true that the reason the authors of all those books do find them is because of their paradigm. Until you gain the courage to ask questions about how to know that your paradigm is in keeping with reality, which requires, in advance, a willingness to reject your paradigm if you don't get the right answers, you'll never get close to knowing for sure that what you believe is right. Almost no one knows how to even begin such a process and far fewer than that are willing to make the attempt. Most are happy to cherry pick their doctrines, accepting the ones that they like and rejecting the ones that they don't without a moment's thought about why they like some doctrines and don't like others, nevermind looking to see if there is an underlying pattern.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Shalom.

Thank you for your response. You are correct that I am dealing with something that I have already rejected. That is, Dispensationalism.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[tetelestai]

I don't hold to a view of the Old Covenant that it ended and heaven and earth passed away in 70 AD.

So, that is why you believe the law of Moses is still in place (every jot and tittle)?

I can see how you came up with that. Dispensationalism makes no sense. If heaven and earth didn't pass away, then YES, the law is still in place today.

However, I'm here to tell you that the law has changed, the covenant has changed, and the priesthood has changed. Thus, the Law of Moses is no longer in place.

 

[tetelestai]

I am dealing with something that I have already rejected. That is, Dispensationalism.

That's a good start.

I too was a Dispensationalist for 25 years.

Dispensationalism is a false teaching that didn't exist before John Nelson Darby invented it in 1830.

 

[Jacob]

What did they (the people you were with when you were a dispie) preach that the lost needed to know, believe or do to be forgiven and saved?

Shalom.

I did not refer to myself as a dispie. I am trying to understand you.

Shalom.

Jacob

Jacob,

If someone had asked you, when you were a dispie, "What must I do to be saved?" what would you have told them?

Shalom.

I was not a dispie or did not refer to myself as a dispie. Jesus died for you that your sins would be forgiven and that you would be granted the free gift of eternal life.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Dispensationalism teaches that heaven and earth did NOT pass away, but at the same time, it claims the law of Moses is not in place today.

Unlike the preterists the dispensationalists are not able to trick their mind into believing that these things have already happened:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

As a wise man I once knew said, "Take to preterism and it will make you stupid."

 

[Jacob]

So, that is why you believe the law of Moses is still in place (every jot and tittle)?

I can see how you came up with that. Dispensationalism makes no sense. If heaven and earth didn't pass away, then YES, the law is still in place today.

However, I'm here to tell you that the law has changed, the covenant has changed, and the priesthood has changed. Thus, the Law of Moses is no longer in place.

Shalom.

I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation.

Neither the Law nor the Prophets have been abolished.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[john w]

Shalom.

Maybe what you said will help someone. Was this that someone needed the whole story? You posted to me. I am either Israel or Israel and the United States of America, as I am a citizen of the United States of America. My last name is a German last name, but I am not German. I believe that we were out before Hitler. Are you making a statement about the German leadership at the Nuremberg trials, the Nuremberg trials, witnesses in trials, witnesses according to Torah or the Talmud, ignorance, feigned ignorance or feigning ignorance, deception, war crimes and their punishment or the lack thereof (I do not know), or ethics, finding out, learning, increasing your knowledge, standing up for those who are hurt by others, doing something about something or doing something about what is wrong or things that are wrong, or being sheltered or a need to get out more pertaining to ethics and world history?

Shalom.

Jacob

Never mind-first time I have ever said that, on TOL.