Rosenritter
New member
I think you may have missed the conversation contrasting Calvinist ideas of "omniscience" vs "omnipotence."
ELECT Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God
- Thread starter 7djengo7
- Start date
I think you may have missed the conversation contrasting Calvinist ideas of "omniscience" vs "omnipotence."
Taking either away from God is nonsense.
You didn't include what you said and I can no longer find it.
My question is, the way to Heaven is narrow and few find it - but how can anyone be faulted for not having w/e it takes to see the right way? Yes, it makes sense to separate the wheat from the chaff, but how can you blame the chaff for being chaff? Thanks.
Rosenritter
New member
The problem is not that God is all powerful (the bible actually DOES say God is omnipotent) or that God knows all things, but the difficulty arises when theology and philosophies invent absurdities and then attempt to place them beneath one umbrella or the other. For example, the typical "settled future" view makes God powerless to change his mind.
God changing His mind implies that He makes mistakes.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Not any more.
The Grace of God is the BIG TENT. Anyone can access it through faith.
That is a result of our Lord's death and resurrection.
Rosenritter
New member
John 9:40-41 KJV
(40) And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
(41) Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
There are some that have the capacity to see but will not see, not because of lack of knowledge but because of a hardness of the heart... but this is not the object of your question. I understand your question to address the question of true lack that might arise for a number of legitimate reasons, including ignorance, brainwashing, poisoning of the well, and false teachers. Is that an accurate assessment?
So to answer that question, let's consider any one of those examples above. If God himself appeared to that person and spoke to him face to face, do you think that would be a fair method of resolving any or all of those difficulties that were simply from lack of understanding? I have two items to suggest that address this question:
1) We shall all stand before God in the judgment, and no one is judged before the judgment. I think it very unlikely that ignorance (or lies or deception) will be allowed to persist at this time.
2) When Jesus tells the parable of the judgment between the sheep and the goats, do the sheep recognize Jesus? or do they protest that they don't even know how they have served Christ? And what of the goats? Is God condemning people for ignorance or of their heart?
Matthew 25:37 KJV
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matthew 25:40 KJV
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
But since your question was "having what it takes to see the right way" that was technically a different question. Repentance, a broken heart and a contrite heart, the willingness to show love to their neighbor: that's what it takes to see the right way. These are the sheep that are gathered on his right hand. "Not having what it takes to see the right way" includes rebellion, pride, stubbornness, hatred, fearfulness. God judges our heart, not our heads.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, it merely shows that He responds to man. Look at Nineveh.
Jonah 3:2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
I couldn’t tease out an answer from all that.
But Jesus is the one who said that. And The question still stands. Man, it must be the hardest question anyone ever asked.
Faith is NOT of yourself.
Faith is God's gift to you. It gives assurance of things not seen, of things hoped for.
Sounds like you have a bone to pick with God.
Humans are, by nature, chaff, not wheat. There is no obligation upon God to turn humans into wheat and redeem us. The right and proper thing to do is to gather up the chaff and then burn it.
But, God chooses to turn some chaff into wheat according to His will, because He can. God doesn't give us the list by which He chooses. That seems to irritate humans. God seems to shrug that complaint off like a parent who does what is wise and doesn't tell his 2 year old why. The 2 year old may ask "why, why, why" and the Father can determine whether to answer or not. God does not answer you regarding why he chooses to redeem some chaff, by making them wheat. A Sovereign King does not have to devulge his reasoning for his decision. That seems to irritate you.
Sounds like you have cause to boast.
You teach that God is reactionary, thus you diminish His foreknowledge, His omniscience, His omnipresence and His omnipotence. Moreso, you deny His sovereignty.
What Jonah teaches us is that God is patient with sinners and He mercifully grants time for repentance.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Election holds strong- rather than God changing His mind, He simply moved people to His will. They would not have repented if God had not threatened them.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
If God is omnipotent, then omniscience is a trivial thing, only requiring that He knows what He is doing, and who would ever grant that His power is limitless, but that He might not know what He Himself is up to?
People try to put the cart before the horse when they argue from omniscience, that God cannot be omnipotent. He is omniscient because He is omnipotent. You have to argue directly that He isn't omnipotent, to argue that He isn't omniscient, not the other way around. And that brings you into the problem of evil, and the only ones with a satisfying solution to the problem of evil, are the Catholics. The Clavinists and the Open Theists have the same problem, when considering some of the atrocities that have occurred throughout history, and that are still occurring today (in Africa, for example). Why does God permit such wickedness? Clavinists have to answer not only why He would permit it, but why He would bring it about.
Catholicism, for its part, believes in God's limitless power---omnipotence---and omniscience, authentic human freedom, and that the Body of Christ herself, is the solution to the problem of evil.
How do you explain the over 1500 years of barbarous attrocities perpetuated by your church denomination on the masses? Such wickedness will be judged harshly.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The Church never should have entangled herself in civil power and authority, and should have recognized, affirmed, and protected religious liberty, as she does today.
When Constantine made the Church the state religion, idk if you can imagine what that must have been like for the bishops at the time. I for one have a hard time blaming them for going along with Constantine's plan there. The Church had turned a very significant historical corner there, changing from being at times hunted as prey, and murdered in the most horrific ways, to all of a sudden being completely safe from that. It must have seemed at the time to be a phenomenal blessing, maybe even a miracle.
It doesn't remove blame, but perhaps you can put yourself in their shoes for a moment, and consider what happened all those centuries ago.
No argument.
The problem is that Rome still harbors its wickedness today. The present pope, continues the practice of abuse down through the ranks.
Rome needs radical reform and repentance...both for which they arrogantly refuse.