keypurr
Well-known member
Good question. Would the Son ever be as great as his Father?
Why would think of manhood when discussing heavenly things.
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Does the Father know evil?
- Thread starter daqq
- Start date
Why would think of manhood when discussing heavenly things.
Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app
One reason I said, "He completed the work of rooting out the evil one" is because the Master says this:
John 14:30 KJV
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
In Gen 3:1 we read that the serpent was more subtle-cunning-crafty than any of the beasts of the field which Elohim had created. That word for suble, cunning, or crafty, (`arum), is a play on the same word for naked, (`arom), which was just used in the previous statement of Gen 2:25, (but they are even the same word without the pointing). What this therefore implies is that the serpent was more nakedly shameless than any of the other of the beasts of the field. We no doubt understand this to be true by his very first words which are a bold faced lie and affront to the warning given to Adam, (for he says to the woman, "Ye shall not surely die"). However we read of him in the Prophet Ezekiel, that he was created perfect, that is, until iniquity was found in him:
Ezekiel 28:12-15 KJV
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
He was in Eden the garden of Elohim, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty, perfect in his ways from the day he was created, until iniquity was found in him; and he thus became shamelessly naked and cunningly crafty, `arum, and more subtle and sly than any other of the beasts of the field. Thus he fell from his former estate; but he was not originally created with darkness because he was created perfect. The darkness came through the first man Adam, when he transgressed the commandment, and Paul tells us that the first man Adam is the one which was formed of dust from the adamah in Gen 2:7. If the first man Adam is the one from Gen 2:7 then where is the second man? The second man from the heavens can be none other than the re-creation of Adam in Gen 1:26-27.
1 Corinthians 15:45-49 ASV
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul [Gen 2:7]. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven [Gen 1:26-27].
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Understand and see what this means? There is no way around it if you claim to believe Paul: the first man Adam was formed of dust from the adamah-soil, in Gen 2:7, and therefore the creation account is not delivered in chronological order, (because Genesis chapter one is prophecy which is not even fully accomplished until the six hours of the new creation at Golgotha, in Messiah, where darkness covered all the land from the sixth hour to the ninth hour: three hours of light and three hours of darkness, divided). This necessarily means, in my doctrine, that the creation account begins in Gen 2:4 because of the colophon statement:
Genesis 2:4-7
4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the Day that Elohim made earth and heavens:
5 Even before any plant of the field was in the earth, and before any herb of the field had sprouted up; for Elohim had not brought rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the adamah-soil.
6 But there went up a fountain-mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the adamah.
7 And Elohim formed the adam of dust from the adamah, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the adam became a living soul.
And this account does not end until the next colophon statement:
Genesis 5:1-2
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam; in the Day Elohim cut-down-created man, in the likeness of Elohim made He him:
2 Male and female He created them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the Day when they were created.
As we see this colophon statement refers the reader back to Gen 1:26-27, and herein the text states that Elohim called their name Adam in that creation account; and this is true in that passage, for there is one instance where the article is not found as it is in so many other places, (Adam as opposed to ha-adam). What this means is that Adam was not given that name until his re-creation, which is not found until Gen 1:27, which is the second man from the heavens.
Genesis 1:26-28
26 And Elohim said, Let us make Adam in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
27 So Elohim cut-down-created ha-adam in His own image, in the image of Elohim He cut-down-created him; male and female He created them.
28 And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.
And according to Paul this is the second man from the heavens; and no doubt this is the teaching because the second man is given dominion over all things, (excepting the One who subjected all things under his feet). Therefore, because of the contexts and the colophon statements, Genesis chapter one belongs directly before Genesis chapter five which is "the book of life from the foundation of the world", (for every name written in Genesis five is written to have "lived", while Genesis four is "the book of the dead" because none therein are ever written to have "lived" though their names are written, (they are thus "permanent dwellers upon the land", Rev 13:8, and likened to desert nomad wanderers, i.e. land of Nod-wandering)). In this way Elohim did not create darkness but rather darkness is the result of the transgression and fall of the first man Adam; and therefore he died, just as he was warned, and in the beginning of the new creation he was cut down so that the light might be separated from the darkness. The word used for beginning is reshiyt, which comes from rosh, meaning head, and by this the first word of Gen 1:1, (breshiyt), may be understood as "in a strong head", that is, in this understanding, the strong, prideful, willingly disobedient head of the first man Adam because of the transgression and fall. When you read the text in this way it makes perfect sense:
Genesis 1:1-4
1 In a strong head Elohim cuts down the heavens and the earth:
2 And the earth is wasted and void, and darkness is upon the face of the abyss: and Ruach Elohim broods upon the face of the waters.
3 And Elohim says, Let there be light: and there is light.
4 And Elohim beholds the light, that it is good: and Elohim divides the light from the darkness.
It is an ongoing event concerning the re-creation of fallen man: each in his or her own appointed times, for all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, (Matthew 11:13). Elohim cuts down darkness and evil; but at the same time He creates life, for He says, "I kill, and I make alive", (Dt 32:29-40), and no doubt He does them both at the same time because it is for our own good and final outcome, being sons of the Elohim of Light and Love.
Who therefore is the son of Man, (son of Adam), according to king David in the Psalm?
Psalm 8:4-8 (Psalm of David)
4 What is man, [enosh], that You are mindful of him? and the son of Adam, that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the Elohim, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; [Gen 1:26] You have put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field:
8 The fowls of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas [Gen 1:26-28].
That is the "new creation" man in Messiah.
Psalm 8:4-8 (Psalm of David)
4 What is man, [enosh], that You are mindful of him? and the son of Adam, that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the Elohim, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; [Gen 1:26] You have put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field:
8 The fowls of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas [Gen 1:26-28].
That is the "new creation" man in Messiah.
Zeke
Well-known member
Because the kingdom is in man Luke 17:20-21 that's why.
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keypurr
Well-known member
I do not see that as the topic of this thread.
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At the time this thread was posted there was another poster whom I know from another board in the past, who had just begun to post here in this board, (somewhat like a "nemisis" for his opposing positions though I do not count man as a true enemy). He is pretty much an old school Gnostic believing that the Father, (YHWH), created evil and shed the blood of mankind, (for example because of the flood), and because of passages such as what has been discussed here in the opening post. I suspect that this thread would have been much more lively and full of debate, being full of his opposing opinions, but unfortunately he was deleted shortly after this thread was posted, (DayAfterYesterday). Anyway it is pretty simple from the opening post which I will narrow down to one passage to make the point more clear:
Genesis 3:21-23 KJVRN
3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did YHWH Elohim make coats of skins, and clothed them.
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore YHWH Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/gen3.htm
Genesis 3:21-23 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin, and clothed them.
3:22 And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever—
3:23 So the Lord God sent him forth out of the garden of Delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken.
http://biblehub.com/sep/genesis/3.htm
Depending on which version you decide to believe you either end up on the Gnostic side, (whether you realize it or not), or you end up protecting the holy name of the Most High Father. The English renderings of the Hebrew text all emphatically imply that YHWH Elohim knows evil, (by the context of the statement in Gen 3:22), while the Septuagint rendering says no such thing because "God", ("ο θεος", Theos, which is the equivalent for Elohim), does not always mean "God Almighty", (YHWH Elohim, the Father). Those who rendered the Hebrew text into the Greek Septuagint some three hundred years before the advent of Messiah, (especially the Torah portions), were not reading the text in the same way that modern scholarship is reading the text. The reasons why this is true are explained on the first page of this thread, (mainly because there was no such thing as word spacing in the earlier Hebrew texts and the waw-vav was not only a letter but often used as a word separator which may or may not have required translation depending on the passage or statement).
Therefore I ask, which one of the following two readings is true and correct:
Genesis 3:22 M/T
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:22 LXX
3:22 And the Elohim said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever?
YHWH Elohim is the Father according to manifold passages throughout the entire Tanakh. The LXX-Septuagint does not say that the Father knows evil; but all of the English translations of the Hebrew text do indeed say that the Father YHWH Elohim knows evil. All it requires is a simple reading of the text and a fair comprehension of what it plainly says. It is a typical dilemma as found in many things throughout the scripture. You can resolve it by loving the Father with all of your heart, and with all of your soul, and with all of your mind|strength.
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oatmeal
Well-known member
At the time this thread was posted there was another poster whom I know from another board in the past, who had just begun to post here in this board, (somewhat like a "nemisis" for his opposing positions though I do not count man as a true enemy). He is pretty much an old school Gnostic believing that the Father, (YHWH), created evil and shed the blood of mankind, (for example because of the flood), and because of passages such as what has been discussed here in the opening post. I suspect that this thread would have been much more lively and full of debate, being full of his opposing opinions, but unfortunately he was deleted shortly after this thread was posted, (DayAfterYesterday). Anyway it is pretty simple from the opening post which I will narrow down to one passage to make the point more clear:
Genesis 3:21-23 KJVRN
3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did YHWH Elohim make coats of skins, and clothed them.
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore YHWH Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/gen3.htm
Genesis 3:21-23 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin, and clothed them.
3:22 And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever—
3:23 So the Lord God sent him forth out of the garden of Delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken.
http://biblehub.com/sep/genesis/3.htm
Depending on which version you decide to believe you either end up on the Gnostic side, (whether you realize it or not), or you end up protecting the holy name of the Most High Father. The English renderings of the Hebrew text all emphatically imply that YHWH Elohim knows evil, (by the context of the statement in Gen 3:22), while the Septuagint rendering says no such thing because "God", ("ο θεος", Theos, which is the equivalent for Elohim), does not always mean "God Almighty", (YHWH Elohim, the Father). Those who rendered the Hebrew text into the Greek Septuagint some three hundred years before the advent of Messiah, (especially the Torah portions), were not reading the text in the same way that modern scholarship is reading the text. The reasons why this is true are explained on the first page of this thread, (mainly because there was no such thing as word spacing in the earlier Hebrew texts and the waw-vav was not only a letter but often used as a word separator which may or may not have required translation depending on the passage or statement).
Therefore I ask, which one of the following two readings is true and correct:
Genesis 3:22 M/T
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:22 LXX
3:22 And the Elohim said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever?
YHWH Elohim is the Father according to manifold passages throughout the entire Tanakh. The LXX-Septuagint does not say that the Father knows evil; but all of the English translations of the Hebrew text do indeed say that the Father YHWH Elohim knows evil. All it requires is a simple reading of the text and a fair comprehension of what it plainly says. It is a typical dilemma as found in many things throughout the scripture. You can resolve it by loving the Father with all of your heart, and with all of your soul, and with all of your mind.
Since God is always good, God is light 1 John 1:5, and in Him is no darkness at all, to suggest that God knows evil because He does evil is dead wrong. However God determines what is good and what is evil. He sets the rules because He alone is wise and worthy to make that call. It is not in man's ability to decree what is good or evil. Men err grossly when they assume that they inherently know what is good and what is evil. Adam and Eve knew whatwas right and wrong and they still messed up. Man needs to humble themselves before God.
Zeke
Well-known member
The Father is part of the kingdom in you where the good and evil teaches the son about divine love and maturity .into?
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Double Blind Bar-Timaeus son of Timaeus said:daqq said:Messiah comes in the name of the LORD, he comes in the name of his and our Father, he comes in the name of יהוה, (YHWH), and moreover the name of the Father is all of Torah, Prophets, and Writings, (Tanakh | "Old Testament"), because a name is so much more than a simple spelling of letters. A name is character, attributes, quality, authority, power, and so many more wonderful things that are found in the Word of the Father which expounds Him unto us His children.
If you think the "Word" is the Torah... your under a bad spell.
Romans 10:4-8
4 For Meshiah is the goal (τελος - point aimed at) of the Torah unto righteousness to everyone who is faithfully-trusting.
5 BECAUSE Moshe writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by|in them." Lv 18:5
6 MOREOVER the righteousness from faithfulness speaks in this manner, "Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into the heavens?" (that is, to bring Meshiah down) Dt 30:12
7 Nor say in your heart, "Who shall descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Meshiah up from the dead) Dt 30:13 Paraphrase
8 But what does it say? "The ρημα-word is very near unto you, in your mouth and in your heart", (that is, the ρημα-word of the faithfulness which we preach) Dt 30:14
Deuteronomy 30:10-15
10 If you shall hearken unto the voice of YHWH your Elohim, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Sefer ha-Torah, and if you turn unto YHWH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul.
11 For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in the heavens, that you should say, Who shall ascend for us into the heavens, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go across the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it and do it?
14 But the Word is very near unto you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 Consider, (See), I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil:
So Paul is teaching in Rom 10:6-8 that this Word from Deut 30:14 is Meshiah, (and Deut 30:10 says written in the Scroll of the Torah), and therefore the Word of the Torah is Meshiah and Meshiah is the Word of the Torah, (whether spoken with the mouth, as ρημα-word, or whether λογος-word as perhaps in wisdom and reasoning).
Who shall ascend into the heavens for us, and bring the Word unto us, that we may hear and do? Who shall go across the sea for us, and bring the Word unto us, that we may hear and do? Who shall descend into the abyss, and bring Meshiah up from the dead, that we may hear the Word and do? Nay but, O man, Meshiah the Word is in your mouth and in your heart, (unless of course you reject the Word of the Torah).
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Romans 10:4-8
4 For Meshiah is the goal (τελος - point aimed at) of the Torah unto righteousness to everyone who is faithfully-trusting.
5 BECAUSE Moshe writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by|in them." Lv 18:5
6 MOREOVER the righteousness from faithfulness speaks in this manner, "Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into the heavens?" (that is, to bring Meshiah down) Dt 30:12
7 Nor say in your heart, "Who shall descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Meshiah up from the dead) Dt 30:13 Paraphrase
8 But what does it say? "The ρημα-word is very near unto you, in your mouth and in your heart", (that is, the ρημα-word of the faithfulness which we preach) Dt 30:14
Deuteronomy 30:10-15
10 If you shall hearken unto the voice of YHWH your Elohim, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Sefer ha-Torah, and if you turn unto YHWH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul.
11 For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in the heavens, that you should say, Who shall ascend for us into the heavens, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go across the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it and do it?
14 But the Word is very near unto you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15 Consider, (See), I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil:
So Paul is teaching in Rom 10:6-8 that this Word from Deut 30:14 is Meshiah, (and Deut 30:10 says written in the Scroll of the Torah), and therefore the Word of the Torah is Meshiah and Meshiah is the Word of the Torah, (whether spoken with the mouth, as ρημα-word, or whether λογος-word as perhaps in wisdom and reasoning).
Who shall ascend into the heavens for us, and bring the Word unto us, that we may hear and do? Who shall go across the sea for us, and bring the Word unto us, that we may hear and do? Who shall descend into the abyss, and bring Meshiah up from the dead, that we may hear the Word and do? Nay but, O man, Meshiah the Word is in your mouth and in your heart, (unless of course you reject the Word of the Torah).
Romans 10:9 W/H (http://biblehub.com/text/romans/10-9.htm)
9 ὅτι ἐὰν ὁμολογήσῃς τὸ ῥῆμα ἐν τῷ στόματί σου ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς, καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ·
9 that if you confess with your mouth the ρημα-word, that is the Master Ι̅H, and trust in your heart that Elohim raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
– Or –
9 that if you confess the ρημα-word with your mouth, that Ι̅H is Master, (Lord), and trust in your heart that Elohim raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
So the teaching of Paul appears to be in this manner:
Romans 10:4-9 – For Meshiah is the goal of the Torah unto righteousness to everyone who is faithfully-trusting: because Moshe writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by-in them." Moreover the righteousness from faithfulness speaks in this manner, "Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into the heavens?" that is, to bring Meshiah down, Nor say in your heart, "Who shall descend into the abyss?" that is, to bring Meshiah up from the dead. But what does it say? "The ρημα-word is very near unto you, in your mouth and in your heart", that is, the ρημα-word of the faithfulness which we preach: that if you confess with your mouth the ρημα-word, that is the Master Ι̅H, (that Ι̅H is Master), and trust in your heart that Elohim raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
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"He that has seen me has seen the Father", (John 14:9)
If you look intently you may see the Son:
The Son is in the bosom of the Father at His right hand side.
Ι̅H – Ια Ηλωιμ (see Mar 15:34) – Yah Elohim (Ruach Elohim – Gen 1:2, Psa 68:18, Mat 3:16, Rom 8:9)
If you look intently you may see the Son:
The Son is in the bosom of the Father at His right hand side.
Ι̅H – Ια Ηλωιμ (see Mar 15:34) – Yah Elohim (Ruach Elohim – Gen 1:2, Psa 68:18, Mat 3:16, Rom 8:9)
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This was posted earlier in another thread, ("Y'shu or Jesus" Reply #11).
I thought it would be helpful to post it here also in this thread:
There is no full name "Ιησους" in any of the most ancient texts and manuscripts because they all use what are now known as Nomina Sacra. The name "Jesus", ("Yeshua"), is nothing more than a guess based on the majority opinion concerning what the Nomina Sacra actually mean. But that is assuming that the majority are correct in their assumptions concerning the meanings and purpose of the Nomina Sacra, (and what if the purpose is to hide a secret, like hidden manna, as the Son of Elohim says there is in Rev 2:17?). The ancient texts also do not appear to have originally contained Greek case endings when it comes to names. This may be seen in names such as Ιακωβ and Ιακωβος, which is rendered "James", except for in genealogies where the case endings are still missing and we read Ιακωβ, (and they render it as "Jacob" instead of "James"). The oldest Nomina Sacra forms for the names of both Meshiah and the Anointed one are Iota-Eta with an overstrike or overline and without a case ending. In later texts they began to add case endings to names and the Nomina Sacra became three letters, Iota-Eta+case ending with an overline. Then, even later, they began to drop the Eta and started writing simply the Iota+case ending. But if they did not truly understand what Iota-Eta means then they did woefully wrong in dropping the Eta because they assumed that the old form was a "suspended form" of Nomina Sacra when in fact it may have rather been an abbreviation for TWO NAMES. The Greek Uncial Iota-Eta, (ΙH), may look like the English capital letters I and H but are the capital, (uncial), Greek Iota and Eta or Heta:
The oldest form looks like so: Ι̅H
(I cannot post a full overline here, or at least I do not know how).
http://drghaly.com/articles/display/11916
Google Translation: https://translate.google.com/transl...rghaly.com/articles/display/11916&prev=search
This was an interesting page, (in Arabic). I just found it in a quick search and chose it because it was interesting. The only point here is the Nomina Sacra Ι̅H, (I have not read the page).
I thought it would be helpful to post it here also in this thread:
There is no full name "Ιησους" in any of the most ancient texts and manuscripts because they all use what are now known as Nomina Sacra. The name "Jesus", ("Yeshua"), is nothing more than a guess based on the majority opinion concerning what the Nomina Sacra actually mean. But that is assuming that the majority are correct in their assumptions concerning the meanings and purpose of the Nomina Sacra, (and what if the purpose is to hide a secret, like hidden manna, as the Son of Elohim says there is in Rev 2:17?). The ancient texts also do not appear to have originally contained Greek case endings when it comes to names. This may be seen in names such as Ιακωβ and Ιακωβος, which is rendered "James", except for in genealogies where the case endings are still missing and we read Ιακωβ, (and they render it as "Jacob" instead of "James"). The oldest Nomina Sacra forms for the names of both Meshiah and the Anointed one are Iota-Eta with an overstrike or overline and without a case ending. In later texts they began to add case endings to names and the Nomina Sacra became three letters, Iota-Eta+case ending with an overline. Then, even later, they began to drop the Eta and started writing simply the Iota+case ending. But if they did not truly understand what Iota-Eta means then they did woefully wrong in dropping the Eta because they assumed that the old form was a "suspended form" of Nomina Sacra when in fact it may have rather been an abbreviation for TWO NAMES. The Greek Uncial Iota-Eta, (ΙH), may look like the English capital letters I and H but are the capital, (uncial), Greek Iota and Eta or Heta:
The oldest form looks like so: Ι̅H
(I cannot post a full overline here, or at least I do not know how).
http://drghaly.com/articles/display/11916
Google Translation: https://translate.google.com/transl...rghaly.com/articles/display/11916&prev=search
This was an interesting page, (in Arabic). I just found it in a quick search and chose it because it was interesting. The only point here is the Nomina Sacra Ι̅H, (I have not read the page).
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Wait, so the name of Jesus doesn't appear in any of the old Uncial texts, except in an abbreviated form? And, oh by the way, the abbreviation is also a literal trans-letter-ation of the original name of God?
:chew:
:chew:
Actually, there has not been much of a discussion here concerning the name of the Anointed One, (Ι̅H), but rather only the name of the Anointing Himself has been discussed, that is, The Son of Elohim, (Ι̅H).
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Didn't follow that.Actually, there has not been much of a discussion here concerning the name of the Anointed One, (Ι̅H), but rather only the name of the Anointing Himself has been discussed, that is, The Son of Elohim, (Ι̅H).
Ι̅H != Ι̅H ?
One is the very Anointing, the Son of Elohim, (Ι̅H).
The other is a man, the Anointed one, a Son of Elohim, (Ι̅H).
The abbreviations are the same but the names are not.
For example, have you ever wondered why the word "again", (παλιν), is written in the following statement?
Matthew 4:8 KJV
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Look what happens when Matthew and Luke are combined:
Matthew-Luke Temptation Account
[01] And approaching, the Tempter said to him, If you are a son of Elohim, command these stones to become bread!
[02] But answering, he said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of Elohim.
[03] And the Devil said to him, If you are the Son of Elohim, command this stone to become bread!
[04] And the Ι̅H answered, saying, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word of Elohim.
[05] And he led him up into Yerushalem, and stationed him upon the pinnacle of the temple, and said to him, If you are the Son of Elohim, cast yourself down from here:
[06] For it is written that His Malakim are given charge concerning you, to guard you:
[07] Also that by their hands they shall bear you up; lest you dash your foot against a stone.
[08] And the Ι̅H answering said to him, It is commanded, You shall not test YHWH your Elohim.
[09] And he led him up and showed to him all the kingdoms of the habitable land in a moment of time.
[10] And the Devil said to him, Unto you will I give this authority, absolutely all, and their glory: for unto me has it been surrendered up, and to whomever I will, I give it.
[11] If you will therefore bow in obeisance before me, all of it shall be yours.
[12] And the Ι̅H answering said to him, It is written, YHWH your Elohim shall you worship: and to Him alone shall you render homage.
[13] Then the Devil took him into the holy city, and stood him on a winglet of the Temple:
[14] And said to him, If you are a son of Elohim, cast yourself down:
[15] For it is written, He shall give His Malakim charge concerning you, also, On their hands they shall bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone.
[16] Ι̅H said to him again, Also it is written, You shall not test YHWH your Elohim.
[17] Again, the Devil took him to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed to him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory:
[18] And he said to him, All these things will I give you if you will fall down and do obeisance unto me.
[19] Then Ι̅H says to him, Withdraw Satan! for it is written, You shall bow to YHWH your Elohim: and to Him alone shall you render homage!
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Psalm 133:1-3
1 A Song of Degrees. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity:
2 Like the good anointing-oilolive upon the head, that descended onto the beard, the beard of Ahron, that went down upon the folds of his robes:
3 As the dew of Hermon that descends upon the hills of Zion, (Mitzar, Psa 42:6), for there YHWH commanded the blessing: life into the olam! (Emek Shaweh, Emek haMelek, Gen 14:17-20).
So the one is the Anointed and the other is the Anointing: brethren dwelling in unity.
Who was from the beginning: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim: Who we declare unto you.
[01] It is written, In this year of the Yobel you shall return every man to his possession, and again, Any owner who lends to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbor or his brother:
[02] For YHWH your Elohim has proclaimed it the shmita-remission, a sending away, a release.
[03] And it shall come to pass in the last days that Melki Tzedek will return the captives, as it is written in haNavi Yeshayah, To proclaim liberty to the captives.
[04] For he will make their rebellious ones become their captives; and those who belong to Melki Tzedek will rule their former oppressors with a rod of iron, the Spirit of the Torah of Elohim.
[05] For the sons of light are given to Melki Tzedek, for they are his inheritance, and he will cause them to return: he will proclaim liberty to them, to free them from all their iniquities.
[06] And in the Yobel of the apokalypse, after Melki Tzedek has proclaimed liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, the Yobel shall be proclaimed:
[07] In the tenth of the seventh month, in the year of redemption, the great and wondrous acceptable year of YHWH, the Yobel shall be proclaimed.
[08] And at that time an atonement shall be made for the sons of light, the sons of Elohim, those who are of the lot of Melki Tzedek: from the heights he will declare in their favor, according to their lots.
[09] For it is the appointed time of the year of the grace of Melki Tzedek, to exalt in the trial, to be lifted up and magnified, and to raise up the holy ones of Elohim by the rule of upright judgment.
[10] As it is written in the Psalm, Elohim stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the Elohim He judges: how long will you judge unjustly and accept the countenances of the wicked? Selah, (Pause).
[11] I have said, You are Elohim, and all of you are sons of the Most High; but you shall die like men, and fall as one of the sarim-princes:
[12] But then he says, Arise, O Elohim, and judge the earth: for you shall inherit all the nations!
[13] And the understanding concerns Belial and all the unclean spirits of his lot, who were all of them rebels, who turned aside from the commandments of Elohim to commit evil.
[14] And Melki Tzedek shall bring forth the upright judgements of Elohim in this day; and the sons of light shall be freed from the hands of Belial, and from the hands of all the unclean spirits of his lot.
[15] And to his aid shall come all the Elohim of justice and upright judgment; and Melki Tzedek will preside from this day evermore over all bnei Elohim, for he presides over the assembly of the Elohim.
[16] And this is the great day of peace, the day of which Elohim spoke in old time by way of the words of haNavi Yeshayah, saying:
[17] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the Messenger who announces peace, the Messenger of good news who announces salvation, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[18] The mountains are the prophets; and the greatest of them all is that Prophet like unto Moshe, whom Moshe prophesied was for to come:
[19] That Prophet is the Anointed Messenger who is blessed of Elohim Most High; blessed with Ruach Melki Tzedek, the Teacher of Righteousness who descends from the heavens.
[20] And when Melki Tzedek has come the Anointed Messenger will announce salvation from the heights, for he shall be sent to comfort the afflicted, and to watch over the smitten of Zion, and to instruct us in all the ages of the world in truth and in righteousness.
[21] And he shall turn the wise and circumspect in heart away from Belial with the upright judgments of Elohim, as it is written of him, saying to Zion, Your Elohim reigns!
[22] And to all the congregation of the sons of justice, and the sons of light, to those who establish the covenant, and those who avoid walking in the way of the heathen:
[23] Your Elohim and the head of the great congregation is Ruach Melki Tzedek, who is the only wise head under the Father, and the Father is the Great Head over all.
[24] And Melki Tzedek will free the captives from the hand of Belial, and the shofarim will blow in all the Land: and the great time of trouble shall come, the hour when Miykael shall pass|over.
[25] As it is written of that Prophet like unto Moshe, YHWH your Elohim will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him shall you hearken:
[26] According to all that you desired of YHWH your Elohim in Horeb, in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
[27] And YHWH said to me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
[28] I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all whatsoever I shall command him.
[29] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words, which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.
[30] For in the day of the assembly the people saw and heard the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and they removed, and stood far off.
[31] And they said unto Moshe, You speak immanu and we will hear: but let not speak immanu-Elohim, lest we die!
[32] And Moshe said to the people, Fear not; for Elohim is come to prove you, that His reverential fear may be before your faces always, that you sin not.
[33] But the people stood far off, and Moshe drew near unto the thick darkness where Elohim was:
[34] And YHWH said to Moshe, Thus shall you say unto bnei Yisrael, You have seen that I have spoken with you from the shamayim.
[35] Moreover Moshe says again, These words YHWH spoke unto all your assembly in the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, out of the cloud, and out of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and He added no more, and He wrote them in two tables of stone and delivered them unto me.
[36] And it came to pass, that when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, though the mountain burned with fire, you came near to me, and all the heads of your tribes and your elders:
[37] And you said, Behold, YHWH our Elohim has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that Elohim does indeed talk with man and he lives.
[38] Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we thus hear the voice of YHWH our Elohim any more, then we shall die.
[39] For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the Living Elohim speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and has lived?
[40] You go near, and hear all that YHWH our Elohim shall say: and you shall speak unto us all that YHWH our Elohim shall speak unto you; and we will hear it, and we will do it.
[41] And YHWH heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me; and YHWH said to me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken unto you: they have well said everything that they have spoken.
[42] מי - Miy shall put within them to have such an heart as this: that they might fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their sons forever! (Devarim-Dt 5:29).
Acts 7:37-38
37 This is that Moshe who said to bnei Yisrael, A prophet shall YHWH your Elohim raise up unto you from your brethren, like unto me; him shall you hear.
38 This is he that was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel, who spoke to him in mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received Living Words (λογια ζωντα) to give unto us:
Who is the too-Wonderful Counselor, the Prince of Peace, and Mighty El, Who is Immanu·El, Who is that Prophet, Who is to come, Who is the Son of Man, Who is the Arm of YHWH revealed by Who, and Who is he that comes from Edom with garments died red from Bozrah, and Who took away all Miy question marks: for Who is Miy and Miy is Who and Who is like El. Who was from the beginning: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the μεμβρανα-lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim Trees of Life: Who is the Good Wine: Who we declare unto you!
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