ECT Does the book of James contradict Paul's epistles? How?

[Arsenios]

I noticed how you added to scripture...

Did Abraham DO the work of offering his son as a living sacrifice on the Altar out of Faith or NOT... ??

It was out of Faith - Paul says so, and I say so, and you say I added to Scripture?

Are you saying that he offered his son out of an ABSENCE of faith???

That's pretty crackers, Nick...

I don't think you believe THAT for a New York minute...

Arsenios

 

[oatmeal]

Did Abraham DO the work of offering his son as a living sacrifice on the Altar out of Faith or NOT... ??

It was out of Faith - Paul says so, and I say so, and you say I added to Scripture?

Are you saying that he offered his son out of an ABSENCE of faith???

That's pretty crackers, Nick...

I don't think you believe THAT for a New York minute...

Arsenios

Good point.

For a believer, works is the indication that we are believing.

I could sleep all day and say that I am believing, but what am I believing? Probably not God's words.

It takes works to read scripture or listen to scripture being taught

Without scripture, we have nothing worthwhile to believe, nothing worthwhile to do, nothing worthwhile to accomplish by works

 

[Right Divider]

Did Abraham DO the work of offering his son as a living sacrifice on the Altar out of Faith or NOT... ??

It was out of Faith - Paul says so, and I say so, and you say I added to Scripture?

Are you saying that he offered his son out of an ABSENCE of faith???

That's pretty crackers, Nick...

I don't think you believe THAT for a New York minute...

Arsenios

His faith was ALREADY counted for righteousness BEFORE he did it.

 

[oatmeal]

His faith was ALREADY counted for righteousness BEFORE he did it.

Not that I don't believe you, but can you document that with a chapter and verse?

 

[Arsenios]

His faith was ALREADY counted for righteousness BEFORE he did it.

Then you admit that his (interrupted) work of sacrificing his son was a work of Faith...

Thank-you...

And from James, we learn that by the works of faith is faith made perfect...

So that the (interrupted) work of faith of sacrificing his son perfected the faith of Abraham...

So NO contradiction between Paul and James...

Abraham's faith needed testing in order to be perfected...

And by his obedience was his faith accounted for righteousness...

Had he not obeyed, but merely believed, his belief would not have been accounted as righteousness...

Faith without obedience to God is dead...

Faith that obeys God apart from the Levitical Law of the Jews is blessed...

Paul disciples obedience, you know...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

His faith was ALREADY counted for righteousness BEFORE he did it.

Please show us that you have not ADDED TO SCRIPTURE with the word ALREADY above...

You have to be careful, because Nick likes to call people smelly names when he thinks they have added to scripture...

Arsenios

 

[oatmeal]

So, any contradictions with James 4-5 and Paul's epistles?

 

[Livelystone]

So, any contradictions with James 4-5 and Paul's epistles?

None at all, at least not when the truth is said about them

The truth is, works of faith as spoken of by James are works being done by God that cannot be done by man!........

Anything less than this is not the truth! After all, the atheist Bill Gates is one of the largest, if not the largest, contributor towards charity as are many other atheists. Truth is, if charities depended on Christians to be succesful, many of them would go belly up.

Bottom line is, anybody can do 'nice guy works' that have nothing to do with faith through Jesus Christ in them............... Amen? I think so!!!

Here is what Paul and others have to say about works being done through faith that are the same works that prove faith through the same standards set by James.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

True faith is not about how much you believe, but what you believe that is the truth! Having the truth in ones heart is the faith that matters, and allows God to respond to prayers made in "true faith" with signs and wonders of the magnitude that proves they were done by the only one who could do them, the same God who is our Father in heaven who looks for those He can appear strong on behalf of them as quoted in the verse below

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Faith that is not the truth will not result in miracles no matter how much someone believes that Jesus is going to rapture the church off of the face of the earth, or that one has to physically die to be resurrected from death onto life. This is why churches that believe in false doctrines such as a resurrection that includes a removal of the saints physically off of the earth are no longer witnessing miracles in their midst being done by God.

Doug

 

[Arsenios]

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit,
and worketh miracles among you,
doeth he it by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith?

So what do you understand by "hearing of faith"?

Arsenios

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The truth is, works of faith as spoken of by James are works being done by God that cannot be done by man!........

Doug

No.

True faith enables man to do the works of God.

However when Abraham was tested, he was on his own.

as Jesus also was when tempted.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

LA

 

[Nick M]

Did Abraham DO the work of offering his son as a living sacrifice on the Altar out of Faith or NOT... ??

Nice try legion. You said this....

Abraham was justified by his work of faith

James said this....

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

 

[Nick M]

His faith was ALREADY counted for righteousness BEFORE he did it.

Not while circumcised, and that is the key and why Paul brings it up.

 

[Livelystone]

Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit,
and worketh miracles among you,
doeth he it by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith?

So what do you understand by "hearing of faith"?

Arsenios

The faith of Christ in us consist of what we believe about Who we believe in

Some one praying in true faith is worshipping in truth that is something God looks for and responds to from "hearing of a person's faith".

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Nobody has a perfect heart, but if we believe the truth of the foundational doctrines of Christ, we have one who is perfect living in our heart giving us all of the perfection we will ever need.

On the other hand, if what someones believes is the truth about Christ is not the truth of the foundational doctrines of Christ as listed in Heb.6 1-2 KJV, it is not Christ who is living in their heart but an impostor who has fooled them and is teaching them lies about the things of God. The sum result of believing in these lies and false doctrines will prohibit the person from reaching the fullness of perfection in them that is the high calling of our profession. This is because God will not move them into the realm of perfection in this life as long as there is unbelief in the truth within their heart (this is why we are told not to fall into the sin of unbelief).

Because of the faith of Christ that in Jesus is/was the truth, is why Jesus said he did not do the works (miracles) that people saw Him doing but instead His Father in Him was doing the works

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The Jews also understood how this process worked that is proven not just by the words spoken of by Paul but another Jew as well

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

 

[Livelystone]

No.

True faith enables man to do the works of God.


LA

Only God can do the works of God. It was the Father in Jesus who did the works and not Jesus

Those persons turned away in the end who say "didn't we do all those mighty works in your name"? (my paraphrase) are turned away because they did not understand the truth because they were thinking they had done it in His name when the truth is they were not able to do anything

What we ask in His name is what we ask in the presence of the Father whose presence we were able to enter into in the name of Jesus

This and the post I just made above explain the truth of who is doing the works that are works only God can do that includes works done through faith in the truth

Would either Abraham or Jesus been able to defeat Satan if the trth was not LIVING in them?

Absolutely not!

 

[oatmeal]

Nice try legion. You said this....



James said this....

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Abraham was justified by works, but the works of Jesus Christ justified us.

James is clearly pointing out that works that are the result of our believing is the crux of justification.

By God's grace, it is not our works, but Jesus Christ's works that justified us

 

[Arsenios]

Nice try legion.

Your fangs are drooling forth here, Nick...
You really do need to learn how to hide them better...

You said this....

Did Abraham DO the work
of offering his son as a living sacrifice on the Altar
out of Faith
or NOT... ??

Abraham was justified by his work of faith

James said this....

21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works
when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

The NAS translation you are using is fair to ok - I use it some myself on the StudyLight interlinear website, but it does suffer a little...

The actual text follows:

BYZ –
αβρααμ ο πατηρ ημων
Abraham the father of us...

ουκ εξ εργων εδικαιωθη
out of works was he not justified?

ανενεγκας ισαακ τον υιον αυτου
having offered up Isaak the son of him

επι το θυσιαστηριον
upon the Altar?

The Greek carries great precision in the meaning... It does not use the dative of agency which the NAS translates as the English word "by" "works", but instead uses the Greek EX, meaning OUT OF plus the genetive "of works"... So that his justification was not caused by his works, but came forth from God OUT OF them...

This is easily confused in the English "by works", which includes, or at least can include, both meanings...

So that the meaning of the passage is clearly that without the works of man, there is no justification by God. And this is further affirmed by James when he writes: "Faith apart from works (again the genitive, not the dative, as above) is DEAD."

And this is further explained when he writes in 2:22

You are seeing that
the Faith was synergizing with the works of him
and out of the works (genetive again)
the Faith was perfected.

The two cases being contrasted here are these:
1: Dative of Agency - "For BY Grace are ye saved..."
2: Genetive of source - "Through the Faith..."

One must enter into the Faith in order, out of the works of the Faith of Christ, to be saved by God's Grace. The Faith of Christ, you see, entails works which must be chosen by each of the faithful to be doing according to the measure of the Faith given them...

And the whole of it is a profound Mystery not to be explained, but to be entered and lived by those who are of the Faith...

Arsenios

 

[Right Divider]

Not that I don't believe you, but can you document that with a chapter and verse?

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
​

Paul explains this all in great detail:

Rom 4:1-13 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: (12) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

 

[Arsenios]

The faith of Christ in us consist of what we believe about Who we believe in

Some one praying in true faith is worshipping in truth that is something God looks for and responds to from "hearing of a person's faith".

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

Nobody has a perfect heart, but if we believe the truth of the foundational doctrines of Christ, we have one who is perfect living in our heart giving us all of the perfection we will ever need.

On the other hand, if what someones believes is the truth about Christ is not the truth of the foundational doctrines of Christ as listed in Heb.6 1-2 KJV, it is not Christ who is living in their heart but an impostor who has fooled them and is teaching them lies about the things of God. The sum result of believing in these lies and false doctrines will prohibit the person from reaching the fullness of perfection in them that is the high calling of our profession. This is because God will not move them into the realm of perfection in this life as long as there is unbelief in the truth within their heart (this is why we are told not to fall into the sin of unbelief).

Because of the faith of Christ that in Jesus is/was the truth, is why Jesus said he did not do the works (miracles) that people saw Him doing but instead His Father in Him was doing the works

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The Jews also understood how this process worked that is proven not just by the words spoken of by Paul but another Jew as well

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Thank-you - I was overly broad in the question... I meant only the "hearing"...

The ancient Christian Faith understands the word "hearing" (of faith) as "heeding"... Appalacia uses it this way, as a command:
"Y'all be back 'fore supper, HEAR??" It means not merely to hear, you see, but to heed, to obey that which IS heard...

So that the hearing of Faith is the WORK of obeying the words of the Faith of Christ ("...teaching them to be carefully observing ALL that I have commanded you to be doing...")

It does NOT mean to merely "hear" with your ears "correct doctrines"... This is an entirely shallow understanding, because it then embroils its adherents in endless bitter arguments about the words heard in doctrinal statements, you see... It is about DOING, and not about verbiage...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
​

Paul explains this all in great detail:

Rom 4:1-13 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: (12) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

Paul is speaking here to the Jews, and the works to which he is referring are not the works of the Faith of Christ, but the works of the Judaic Law in which ONLY Jews, and most Christian Jews of that time, were living...

The Faith of Christ does the Works of Christ...

These are the Works of the Faith...

They are the Works of Abraham...

Before the Levitical Law of the Jews...

Abraham believed God [the pre-incarnate Logos] and DID as he was commanded to DO...

Christians do the same, but now with the post incarnate Logos...

Arsenios

 

[Livelystone]

Thank-you - I was overly broad in the question... I meant only the "hearing"...

The ancient Christian Faith understands the word "hearing" (of faith) as "heeding"... Appalacia uses it this way, as a command:
"Y'all be back 'fore supper, HEAR??" It means not merely to hear, you see, but to heed, to obey that which IS heard...

So that the hearing of Faith is the WORK of obeying the words of the Faith of Christ ("...teaching them to be carefully observing ALL that I have commanded you to be doing...")

It does NOT mean to merely "hear" with your ears "correct doctrines"... This is an entirely shallow understanding, because it then embroils its adherents in endless bitter arguments about the words heard in doctrinal statements, you see... It is about DOING, and not about verbiage...

Arsenios

I agree, 'to have ears that hear' is not just to understand the truth, but to live the truth

No wanting to "over-embellish" but avoiding not giving the credit where it is deserved........

No man can act like Christ or become Christ, but Christ can become us if we worship Him in spirit and in truth,

Re.6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer

IMO this is the Voice of the Lord becoming both our King and our Conquer