Does Holy Scripture with no outside knowledge = proven saved + determinism

[God's Truth]

I told you... Pagans, Muslims and Jews are supposed to fear their God as you do. There is nothing new in this.

And? I am speaking about the Word of God according to the Bible.

So what if you find similarities in teachings from other religions?

The Bible says fear God.

Of course you don’t keep living in fear if you are doing right, but that is another point.

You are trying to know it better than what God says in the Bible.

In fact, it is me who needs trusting my Creator in everything done in/for me and the world; otherwise how could I love my enemies for example?

You are the one who spoke of God needing to deserve and earn your trust.
If you change your mind about that, good.

If someone cannot trust God's Love in everything created as I do, he has no choice but to obey what the clerics approve as God's rules to avoid the wrath of his non-loving God

Stop talking about clerics. I’m speaking of the Bible.

Why do you keep talking about clerics?

We have to obey what Jesus says in the New Testament.

Only a cruel selfish king looks for followers and slaves to obey him... and you, not I, insist that God needs the obedience of man.

God is the one who insists on it.

You have your own made up ‘bible’ with your own made up God, which is not the one and only true God.

As Paul in the Bible says, you are either a slave to sin, or you are a slave to righteousness

You are a slave to sin because you speak against God’s written words in the Bible.

In an earthly kingdom, people should fear their selfish king... and it is you, not me, who insist that we have to fear God.

It is not wise to say that about God.

I hope you are right... because I just feed my soul by living God's Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus, towards all others and live, therefore, the joy of God's Realm of Love even in this life.

But then the devil ensnared you to speak against God’s words.
How do you think that is good?

I just gave two examples to prove that even if we, you and I, read the same words of a verse, we likely understand it differently, speaking practically.

I proved you wrong when I gave you other scriptures that aren’t so easy for you to wiggle.

By the way, a professional killer doesn't fear another killer. A professional thief doesn't fear another thief... a faithful follower of Satan has no reason to fear him or his demons

I don’t look to knowledge from killers about killers, or to thieves about thieves, or Satan followers and demons.
I look to God’s written book in the Holy Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

How?

What is the distinction you make?

Every person still has to believe if they want salvation

You said God chooses those He knows will choose Him.

However, the Bible says God chooses those who believe and obey Him.

Sure God knows who that will be, but they are not saved until they do those things.

It is why God is waiting so long to come again, not wanting for any to perish.

The world will get worse before he comes again.

When you say God chooses those He knows will believe in Him, then that takes away what the Bible says, and it gives room for Calvinists and Lutheran's and other false teachings.

 

[KerimF]

You are the one who spoke of God needing to deserve and earn your trust.
If you change your mind about that, good.

To my knowledge, I never say this because I don't believe it in the first place.
So I wonder which sentence I wrote that gave you the impression that my Creator may need anything from me.
Thank you.

 

[God's Truth]

To my knowledge, I never say this because I don't believe it in the first place.
So I wonder which sentence I wrote that gave you the impression that my Creator may need anything from me.
Thank you.

Here is where you said it:

For example, even on earth, I can't truly love/trust someone and fear him, in any way, at the same time; unless I am not sure that he deserves my unlimited trust in the first place.

God says to fear Him, but you say you cannot truly love and trust someone and fear them, and that if you did, it would mean God deserves only your limited trust.

Did I read you right?

 

[thborn]

Both those denominations are false. Don't go by any teacher. Only go by Jesus, who says that he will teach you, if you get his commands and obey them.

On further reflection...in my earlier response I failed to respond adequately about your point about testing oneself (this is what happens when one does not actually look back at the original verse one posted. Not my smartest moment). 2 Corinthians 13:5 does say to test oneself, something that people from all sorts of denominations or no official denomination at all fail to do. We definitely have to obey Jesus' teachings to progress spiritually. God will save whom he chooses, but the intention to grow in Jesus's teachings must be proclaimed as part of accepting Jesus as Lord. When we look at people who say they are saved, we should expect to see people who are humble enough to be willing to confess their sins to other Believers, who think of following Jesus means a radical rejection of the world and much of its politics, entertainment, and technology. Who actually sacrifice time and undergo hardship for people in worse situations, who don't like to see any living creature suffering. Are there some people who believed in Jesus and the Resurrection but did not commit to such teachings in the ways we would like or expect? I would say only God knows. But we should indeed expect righteous behavior all the time.

As to how to respond to people who say they are Baptist or Cavinist or Lutheran in some sense or other...I am going by how much what they say matches Scripture. I read a blog post here and there, listen to a radio sermon here and there, etc. Why should God not be working in these things? As well as in some who ascribe to no denomination? I will continue to seek, but so far I have not found that many individuals who accept all of Scripture...Jesus' teachings, and the power of his blood and God's grace unto salvation, and what Romans teaches about determinism. Some come close, and it's not my place to judge all of them.

But I believe I am saved, so I have to proclaim all of it, not just the parts I like. Part of me likes free will, and it was difficult for me to make room in my heart for God's determination. I've always loved movies where an antagonist is brought to the light, and I thought of that as a free will choice. But I realized that it is just as amazing, or even more amazing, for God to call such a man or woman to him. I think this may be a much fuller truth, with layers of perception. One that leaves us open to love God not because we want something but because we love Christ, as scripture tells us to do, while at the same time fearing/honoring God.

 

[thborn]

If someone cannot trust God's Love in everything created as I do, he has no choice but to obey what the clerics approve as God's rules to avoid the wrath of his non-loving God

God's love and the fear of God are big topics. To some degree we can't fully understand them. A lot of times, it seems that fear of God also means awe of God. But there is "fear and trembling" in Philippians 2:12 and Ephesians 6:5. And all the other places you find fear of God in Scripture, depending on the translation. It seems wonderfully complex to me, something worthy of study. But the essentials are that we must show love God, show love to others, like in all those inspiring stories about people taking care of others day in and day out, and show fear/awe/honor to God, for his glory.

 

[Wick Stick]

Does Holy Scripture with no outside knowledge = proven saved + determinism

Over the past few months I have been able so read Scripture as never before…and with much fewer preconceptions than the average person.

The present state of the Bible is that there are multiple translations, and some of them have been translated in a way that makes determinism seem like an unassailable fact, and others as though it is folly. Should you invest some time to study it in Greek with an interlinear Bible and a lexicon, you'll find that the whole thing hinges on how a handful of words are rendered.

I guess all I'm really trying to say is... even the Bible itself has been colored by the preconceptions of the translators where it comes to determinism (or Calvinism, or TULIP, or pre-destination, or whichever-word-you-prefer.)

So it would depend on which Bible you read. With no preconceptions and a different Bible, you very well might come to a different conclusion.

Jarrod

 

[God's Truth]

On further reflection...in my earlier response I failed to respond adequately about your point about testing oneself (this is what happens when one does not actually look back at the original verse one posted. Not my smartest moment). 2 Corinthians 13:5 does say to test oneself, something that people from all sorts of denominations or no official denomination at all fail to do. We definitely have to obey Jesus' teachings to progress spiritually. God will save whom he chooses, but the intention to grow in Jesus's teachings must be proclaimed as part of accepting Jesus as Lord. When we look at people who say they are saved, we should expect to see people who are humble enough to be willing to confess their sins to other Believers, who think of following Jesus means a radical rejection of the world and much of its politics, entertainment, and technology. Who actually sacrifice time and undergo hardship for people in worse situations, who don't like to see any living creature suffering. Are there some people who believed in Jesus and the Resurrection but did not commit to such teachings in the ways we would like or expect? I would say only God knows. But we should indeed expect righteous behavior all the time.

As to how to respond to people who say they are Baptist or Cavinist or Lutheran in some sense or other...I am going by how much what they say matches Scripture. I read a blog post here and there, listen to a radio sermon here and there, etc. Why should God not be working in these things?

Those denominations teach things that God does not say, and it hinders those who want to be saved.

As well as in some who ascribe to no denomination?

They too might teach falseness. It depends on what they are teaching.

They could say some truths here and there, or many truths here and there, but once they preach something false blessed is the one who learns the truth and gets closer to the Lord for it.

I will continue to seek, but so far I have not found that many individuals who accept all of Scripture...Jesus' teachings, and the power of his blood and God's grace unto salvation, and what Romans teaches about determinism. Some come close, and it's not my place to judge all of them.

Well we are to judge those who say they are of the church, the body of Christ.

But I believe I am saved, so I have to proclaim all of it, not just the parts I like. Part of me likes free will, and it was difficult for me to make room in my heart for God's determination.

See you aren't even speaking words from God but rather from Calvinists. You say God's determination as if it is spoken of like that in the Bible.

God tells us how He saves and how to be the person He saves.

I've always loved movies where an antagonist is brought to the light, and I thought of that as a free will choice. But I realized that it is just as amazing, or even more amazing, for God to call such a man or woman to him.

God calls all people to Him, but not all hear, and it is not because God doesn't want them to hear. They might reject God after hearing. That is not God doing that to them or keeping them from being saved.

I think this may be a much fuller truth, with layers of perception. One that leaves us open to love God not because we want something but because we love Christ, as scripture tells us to do, while at the same time fearing/honoring God.

We don't love God unless we obey Him. Obeying God is love. God says He loves those who love Him by obeying Him. Those are the people He saves.

 

[oatmeal]

You said God chooses those He knows will choose Him.

However, the Bible says God chooses those who believe and obey Him.

Sure God knows who that will be, but they are not saved until they do those things.

It is why God is waiting so long to come again, not wanting for any to perish.

The world will get worse before he comes again.

When you say God chooses those He knows will believe in Him, then that takes away what the Bible says, and it gives room for Calvinists and Lutheran's and other false teachings.

Show me the scriptures

 

[God's Truth]

Show me the scriptures

Who does God choose to save and why?

This is who God saves and why:


2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Acts 9:14 And now he is here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name.”

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Acts 9:21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"

1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But whoever loves God is known by God

John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.

1 John 5:3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

Matthew 18:3 "I assure you," He said, "unless you are converted and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

James 4:6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 10:35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Proverbs 20:6 Many a man proclaims his loving devotion, but who can find a trustworthy man?

Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved bymy Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.

1 Samuel 2:30 "Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

Psalm 91:14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and forceful people lay hold of it.

Luke 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

 

[God's Truth]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[KerimF]

God's love and the fear of God are big topics. To some degree we can't fully understand them. A lot of times, it seems that fear of God also means awe of God. But there is "fear and trembling" in Philippians 2:12 and Ephesians 6:5. And all the other places you find fear of God in Scripture, depending on the translation. It seems wonderfully complex to me, something worthy of study. But the essentials are that we must show love God, show love to others, like in all those inspiring stories about people taking care of others day in and day out, and show fear/awe/honor to God, for his glory.

On my side, I fully understand God's love and the fear of God, thanks to Jesus sayings.

God's love may be lived between two human beings (mutual) or by one person towards another (one-sided) and how to live it depends on the situation. In my life, the Holy Spirit, I accepted in me since I was teenager, has guided me in every hard situation, I had to face, since being good always is not welcomed or understood by those who have to follow their instincts of survival only (those who end up having a living flesh only to take care).

Jesus summarizes His message perfectly by a simple short prayer {Mathew 6:9-13}. I usually think of it every time I talk to Jesus and my Father in Heaven in private {Mathew 6:5-7}

But those who cannot perceive God's Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus, have no choice but to also fear God, in one way or another. And they usually do it in groups as Pagans use doing towards their gods in various religious ceremonies/rituals.

By the way, I realised/dicovered that Jesus is my Creator based on the same logical reasoning which I use in my scientific studies. I ended up being an independent disciple (student in Arabic) of Jesus; my divine all-knowledge Teacher. In other words, I found in Him the Light of knowledge which I was looking for. So even if the entire world may someday deny His existence and/or His message, I would have no reason to do so; unless I will decide to deny myself too.

 

[KerimF]

Here is where you said it:

For example, even on earth, I can't truly love/trust someone and fear him, in any way, at the same time; unless I am not sure that he deserves my unlimited trust in the first place.

God says to fear Him, but you say you cannot truly love and trust someone and fear them, and that if you did, it would mean God deserves only your limited trust.
Did I read you right?

Thank you for pointing it out.

What I meant by the verb 'deserve' could be explained (I hope) in the following analogy:

Before downloading a new program on my PC, I usually check if its programmer or company deserves being trusted or not, technically and morally too. Otherwise the downloaded program may have many bugs and may even damage my PC in one way or another. But, if I decided downloading it without being sure of the programmer/company clean status, I would run it while I fear to face an unexpected trouble anytime.

Anyway, your interpretation is right (sorry for the confusion) and there is surely a sentence which can reflect better/correctly what I have in mind.

 

[God's Truth]

Thank you for pointing it out.

What I meant by the verb 'deserve' could be explained (I hope) in the following analogy:

Before downloading a new program on my PC, I usually check if its programmer or company deserves being trusted or not, technically and morally too. Otherwise the downloaded program may have many bugs and may even damage my PC in one way or another. But, if I decided downloading it without being sure of the programmer/company clean status, I would run it while I fear to face an unexpected trouble anytime.

Anyway, your interpretation is right (sorry for the confusion) and there is surely a sentence which can reflect better/correctly what I have in mind.

I'm glad to discuss it with you.

 

[oatmeal]

You said God chooses those He knows will choose Him.

However, the Bible says God chooses those who believe and obey Him.

Sure God knows who that will be, but they are not saved until they do those things.

It is why God is waiting so long to come again, not wanting for any to perish.

The world will get worse before he comes again.

When you say God chooses those He knows will believe in Him, then that takes away what the Bible says, and it gives room for Calvinists and Lutheran's and other false teachings.

God has foreknowledge

And He uses it wisely

 

[God's Truth]

God has foreknowledge

And He uses it wisely

So you aren't going to acknowledge the word of God. So be it.

 

[oatmeal]

So you aren't going to acknowledge the word of God. So be it.

So you are saying that God does not have foreknowledge nor the wisdom to use it?

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Romans 16:27
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Seems to me, it is you that have some learning to do regarding what scripture says

 

[God's Truth]

So you are saying that God does not have foreknowledge nor the wisdom to use it?

Those are your words that you twisted in the discussion in a dishonest way.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter is explaining that the plan for salvation was made before the creation of anything, and who the apostles would be.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

That is another scripture about the plain for salvation was made before the world was made.

Romans 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That is about the JEWS whom God foreknew, for God had a relationship with them before the Gentiles.

Paul is letting the Gentiles know that those Jews God foreknew---He also made the plan for them to be saved too, even if it didn't look like it.

Seems to me, it is you that have some learning to do regarding what scripture says

It is you who has no knowledge or wisdom. God gives knowledge and wisdom to those who obey Jesus.

Start doing that and see what happens.

 

[oatmeal]

Those are your words that you twisted in the discussion in a dishonest way.


Peter is explaining that the plan for salvation was made before the creation of anything, and who the apostles would be.




That is another scripture about the plain for salvation was made before the world was made.



That is about the JEWS whom God foreknew, for God had a relationship with them before the Gentiles.

Paul is letting the Gentiles know that those Jews God foreknew---He also made the plan for them to be saved too, even if it didn't look like it.



It is you who has no knowledge or wisdom. God gives knowledge and wisdom to those who obey Jesus.

Start doing that and see what happens.

You should read scripture instead of pontificating about things you are clearly very ignorant of

 

[God's Truth]

You should read scripture instead of pontificating about things you are clearly very ignorant of

You describe yourself.

Isn't that funny how that works.

Jesus revealed to me that when a person such as yourself says things about me like you did that you are showing exactly what you are.