Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

[ghost]

Sorry. Meant post #45. I would copy and paste the statements that imply your concerns but I only have access to my phone today to make replies.

And? The point I made (am making) is that God is never separated from evil if evil is eternally in the mind of God. It is part of Him, not that He is part of it. I, of course, do not believe that evil is eternally in the mind of God, nor will it be for those in Christ.

 

[ghost]

I believe we are all volitional creatures with God-given moral agency with which we are responsible and accountable before God to submit our human wills to His sovereign will.

AMR will state the same a bit differently. None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God.

Nang

Then you disagree with what Lon said?

 

[Nang]

Then you disagree with what Lon said?

No I do not disagree with Lon. I take a stronger stand against the post-modern teachings of "free" will than Lon or even Calvin, who when he referred to the will of man, did so with a different understanding of the issue that as it has developed and morphed in our day.

Nang

 

[ghost]

No I do not disagree with Lon.

Neither do I. I agree fully with what I quoted from him.

 

[Nick M]

I believe we are all volitional creatures with God-given moral agency with which we are responsible and accountable before God to submit our human wills to His sovereign will.

AMR will state the same a bit differently. None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God.

Nang

Contradictory statement. Just like a politician. Your conclusion is still wrong.

None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God

Genesis 3

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

Once again, the Bible defeats the "theories" of calvinism.

 

[Nang]

And? The point I made (am making) is that God is never separated from evil if evil is eternally in the mind of God. It is part of Him, not that He is part of it. I, of course, do not believe that evil is eternally in the mind of God, nor will it be for those in Christ.

Have you ever considered the possibility that God not only created the material world in order to display His glory and grace; primarily through His Son, but also with the purpose of manifesting all evil, darkness, and wickedness, to display His judgments against the same as well as His just and total elimination of all such sorrows from His eternal realm, forever and ever?

 

[ghost]

Have you ever considered the possibility that God not only created the material world in order to display His glory and grace; primarily through His Son, but also with the purpose of manifesting all evil, darkness, and wickedness, to display His judgments against the same as well as His just and total elimination of all such sorrows from His eternal realm, forever and ever?

Yes. What does that have to do with God knowing all things eternally?

 

[Nang]

And? The point I made (am making) is that God is never separated from evil if evil is eternally in the mind of God. It is part of Him, not that He is part of it. I, of course, do not believe that evil is eternally in the mind of God, nor will it be for those in Christ.

Yes. What does that have to do with God knowing all things eternally?

Might we learn in glory, that there is no darkness, death, nor evil in all of God,s eternal realm, BECAUSE in His wisdom He made all such manifest in the created,
material world and overcame all through Jesus Christ?

At least I offer the thoughts as a possible theodicy.

 

[ghost]

Might we learn in glory, that there is no darkness, death, nor evil in all of God,s eternal realm, BECAUSE in His wisdom He made all such manifest in the created, material and overcame all through Jesus Christ?

At least I offer the thoughts as a possible theodicy.

Cool! :thumb: I'm just looking to examine everything in light of what God has already revealed to us. All I want is the truth.

 

[graceandpeace]

I know what you are saying, but if it is in the mind of God (as all things would be, if God knows all things) then how is it not eternal? If God has seen evil eternally, evil exists in the mind of God eternally, even if it is not God performing the evil.



Agreed. Nevertheless, evil would be ever present in God's mind, including every destestable act and thought of man eternally, if God knows all things. That may be true. I won't disagree.

You could be right

Yes, sin is choosing independence.

Nor I

okay

okay


Yes, very similar to mine. However, the idea that God knows all evil perpetually in though and deed makes, at the very least, evil eternally in the mind of God, having never not existed, and existing perpetually throughout eternity.

I find that belief quite disturbing, along with the belief by some who have suggested that we will eternally have the knowledge of not only our own evil thoughts and acts, but those of others.

The bible says the former things will be forgotten. I don't know why people would want to think that they would need to be remembered..at that point in time.

We all should know that God has the ability to make choices..but, we should also know that He cannot choose to do evil. I personally believe He has the option to not choose to know all things, if it suits Him. I try not to limit Him in any way.

 

[graceandpeace]

Evil is a privation, a lack of God's purpose. We could assume that God has always known what happens outside of His desire. I don't think it a major issue but such can affect thinking in other areas of our theology as it does with God's omniscience and whether He learns something new.


Some, I don't think many.


Calvin believed in free will, just not to the extent most assume it. It is ever true that when sinners, we are 'free' from God, in bondage to sin and that believers are free from sin and bound happily to our Creator. As such, free will is qualified in our view and we see it free in only certain and specific aspects. We don't believe the will is ever entirely free (of course most of us agree with this specific dilineation). So then, when a Calvinist is saying no free-will, he is specifically not saying in all ways it is not free, but rather that for specific discussions, we would disagree with the freedom expressed. I.E. we are not free as sinners to follow after God until sin is taken care of. We are not free to do as we like as believers because we are bound to Christ's will and etc.
-Lon

At the same time, you are free to do the will of God, and that demands the right to choose to do so.

It can get sticky trying to define this, to a umpth degree....all in all, I believe every human, has the ability to make choices, because God made us in His image. God chooses to remain Holy, but, it is because He is unable to do anything against His own will, and His will is only good.

I believe in a God that you cannot put in a box.....

 

[ghost]

God chooses to remain Holy

That's impossible. Do you know what "Holy" means? I'm not trying to get into a fight here. I just think you may not know. God can no more choose to be Holy than He can choose to be God.

 

[graceandpeace]

That's impossible. Do you know what "Holy" means? I'm not trying to get into a fight here. I just think you may not know. God can no more choose to be Holy than He can choose to be God.

I said, to REMAIN holy...I am not saying God can be unholy...I am saying, He chooses of His own FREEWILL to remain what He is...HOLY.

We also have to CHOOSE to remain holy; many are defiled...because they choose to go astray and follow men.

 

[ghost]

I said, to REMAIN holy...I am not saying God can be unholy...I am saying, He chooses of His own FREEWILL to remain what He is...HOLY.

We also have to CHOOSE to remain holy; many are defiled...because they choose to go astray and follow men.

grace... think about what you just said.

 

[Nang]

I said, to REMAIN holy...I am not saying God can be unholy...I am saying, He chooses of His own FREEWILL to remain what He is...HOLY.

So where's the choice? There is no choice.

God is what He is.

Holy.

We also have to CHOOSE to remain holy; many are defiled...because they choose to go astray and follow men.

Nope.

Man is what man is.

If man exhibits holiness, it is only caused by the grace and power and sanctification of Holy God.

To say that man "must choose to remain holy," is reiteration of the legalism from which you have fled, Janet.

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Does Nang and AMR agree with this?

Yes, as Lon notes we are just not as free as we tend to think we are. So when "free will" is bandied about, persons need to carefully define what that really means to one another before the conversation can even proceed.

The Reformed view of free will is that all men possess the liberty of spontaneity, the self-determined freedom to choose according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment they choose, and that man's choices are always in keeping with man's nature.

Reformed emphatically deny that man possesses what is commonly called libertarian free will, the liberty of indifference, as if man can actually choose contrary to the inclinations of his nature when he is choosing. Libertarian free will assumes choice can be bereft of want (hence "indifferent") of the will. Actually, anyone possessing what libertarian free will entails would never choose, as they would exist only in a frozen pose, as no inclination would exist within them inclining them to choose in the first place.

AMR

 

[graceandpeace]

grace... think about what you just said.

Did you read the part where I said, God cannot be unholy? It is true.
God would never choose to be unholy. He is making and bringing us to have the same mindset...once the gospel is confirmed in us, we cannot choose to be unholy, either.
God keeps us like He keeps Himself...there is a point in time, where we as christians can choose to be defiled; however, and many are. Why? They never made their calling and election sure; by having the truth confirmed in them. Love was never perfected..once it is; it cannot be moved...Why? It would not DESIRE to. This is why God cannot be unholy..He does NOT desire it.

It really is simple.

 

[bybee]

Yes, as Lon notes we are just not as free as we tend to think we are. So when "free will" is bandied about, persons need to carefully define what that really means to one another before the conversation can even proceed.

The Reformed view of free will is that all men possess the liberty of spontaneity, the self-determined freedom to choose according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment they choose, and that man's choices are always in keeping with man's nature.

Reformed emphatically deny that man possesses what is commonly called libertarian free will, the liberty of indifference, as if man can actually choose contrary to the inclinations of his nature when he is choosing. Libertarian free will assumes choice can be bereft of want (hence "indifferent") of the will.Actually, anyone possessing what libertarian free will entails would never choose, as they would exist only in a frozen pose, as no inclination would exist within them inclining them to choose in the first place.

AMR

Now that is an interesting thought. I wonder how it works in the case of an altruistic deed. One would choose survival yet might sacrifice oneself for another.
Do you think there could be a neutral position for the will?

 

[graceandpeace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
I said, to REMAIN holy...I am not saying God can be unholy...I am saying, He chooses of His own FREEWILL to remain what He is...HOLY.

Nang:

So where's the choice? There is no choice.

God is what He is.

Holy.

God is what He is, because He chooses and desires only good. That does not mean He does not have a choice. He always chooses good; you can count on it. Again, I am not saying it could ever be His desire to be evil. I am saying He has a choice.

Quote:
We also have to CHOOSE to remain holy; many are defiled...because they choose to go astray and follow men.

Nang:

Nope.

Man is what man is.

Carnal man is what carnal man is...this is true. I am talking about a sanctified; holy spirit led believer. They can become defiled, due to freewill choice. The bible is full of this example, which is why we are warned...against allowing ourselves to become in this state.

It only occurs before we have been made perfect, through love. Perfect love casts out fear...we are not fully without fear, upon conversion..we grow in grace and in knowledge, until Jesus completes in us what He started..the bible calls it maturing in the faith.

A mature man cannot become defiled; because his heart cannot desire it, same as with God.

Faith grows, to a mature point. We do not receive this upon initial salvation.

If man exhibits holiness, it is only caused by the grace and power and sanctification of Holy God.

Yes, exactly. Now go read how a man defiles that.

To say that man "must choose to remain holy," is reiteration of the legalism from which you have fled, Janet.

Nang

I am not talking about remaining holy by the law of moses/ works..I am talking about remaining holy by remaining in the FAITH.

Faith is not of the law; they are opposites.

We defile faith when we quench the holy spirit; and sometimes even to the point of apostacy, falling back into unbelief; but, please...let's keep this thread on topic.

It is going way off.

 

[ghost]

I said, to REMAIN holy...I am not saying God can be unholy...I am saying, He chooses of His own FREEWILL to remain what He is...HOLY.

We also have to CHOOSE to remain holy; many are defiled...because they choose to go astray and follow men.

grace... There is no choice here. Holy is what God is, He is not free to choose to be Holy anymore than He is free to choose to be God.

Let me explain what it means for God to be Holy (and also those who have been made holy in Christ).

Being "holy" is not subjective. God is Holy because there is no other. He is without an equal. He cannot be compared. This is what it means to be "holy". Believers are holy, but that does not mean that they are God, it simply means that they are (corporately) without equal. Believers cannot compare themselves to one another, because all have been made holy by God.