Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

[Nang]

Ghost seems to think that God's knowledge of darkness, ontologically changes God into darkness, which is too horrible to consider, so to remedy this (faulty) possibility, Ghost denies and thereby limits God's knowledge, in an effort to preserve the goodness of God.

But all ghost achieves is a human version of God, which of course constitutes an idol.

Open Theists worship an idol of their own making.

 

[zippy2006]

All of their own evil thoughts and deeds? I think so, I think that is probably part of the purification process. How can one know God's mercy without fully understanding their own culpability and failure before Him? The more I know and understand my own sin, the greater my love for God. Knowledge of past sins is not equivalent to guilt, for we have been pardoned.

I'm not talking about in these bodies, but in our eternal ones. Will we have the capacity to remember our evil acts and thoughts and the evil acts (we are aware of now) of others?

I don't think my answer would change (in fact I was referring to our eternal existence in Heaven). I sure hope I don't forget what foolishness God has saved me from, lest I forget His mercy and goodness. In fact I think this is our very advantage over Adam.

:e4e:

 

[Nang]

It kind of reminds me of the same odd logic held by the Exchaned Lifers who believe a sinner's knowledge of God's forgiveness, ontologically changes them into sinless beings.

Not so.

Forgiven sinners remain sinful men, and the omniscient God remains God, despite His knowledge of the sins He forgives.

 

[ghost]

Ghost seems to think that God's knowledge of darkness, ontologically changes God into darkness

Nang either has reading comprehension problems or is intentionally deceptive. No other possibility exists.

I have neither suggested or believe any such thing.

The woman (I use that term generously) has not a clue. She still has no idea what questions I've asked, nor does she have a single productive comment in this thread. As always, she's just being her typical busybody meddling in things she can't comprehend, let alone constructively contribute.

 

[Nang]

Ghost, review your post #44.

 

[graceandpeace]

My philosophical guess: Yes. Perptually, like it is always the dinner topic? No.
Remembering sin, we will never go back because we remember its consequences.

Yes, 'knowing evil', is not evil of itself. It is the thought, born through lust, and, acted upon that evil becomes something 'bad'.

I have struggled with this topic in the past.

God finally got it unmixed in my head.

For example...

It is not a bad thing that I know the 'works of the evil one', for we are told to not be without that knowledge.

It is only a 'bad' thing when we DO the 'works of the evil one'.

God has never been tempted to DO evil, nor indeed can He.

He does KNOW what evil is, and what it's result will be, and why.

His plan from the beginning included Him knowing evil...it did NOT include Him being the ONE whom worked it.

 

[Nang]

Right. God possessing knowledge of realities outside His Being, does not threaten His Being.

 

[ghost]

Ghost, review your post #44.

Did, now what?

 

[ghost]

Yes, 'knowing evil', is not evil of itself. It is the thought, born through lust, and, acted upon that evil becomes something 'bad'.

I have struggled with this topic in the past.

God finally got it unmixed in my head.

For example...

It is not a bad thing that I know the 'works of the evil one', for we are told to not be without that knowledge.

It is only a 'bad' thing when we DO the 'works of the evil one'.

God has never been tempted to DO evil, nor indeed can He.

He does KNOW what evil is, and what it's result will be, and why.

His plan from the beginning included Him knowing evil...it did NOT include Him being the ONE whom worked it.

Calvinism teaches that God not only knows all things evil but brings them all to pass.

Where did evil come from before God created the angels and man? Is evil eternal?

 

[andyc]

Ghost seems to think that God's knowledge of darkness, ontologically changes God into darkness, which is too horrible to consider, so to remedy this (faulty) possibility, Ghost denies and thereby limits God's knowledge, in an effort to preserve the goodness of God.

But all ghost achieves is a human version of God, which of course constitutes an idol.

Open Theists worship an idol of their own making.

A bit too strong of an assessment I think, although its certainly a compromise to try and explain the eternal nature of God in a way that is more acceptable from a humanistic standpoint.

God is eternal, the natural man is not. We bridge the gap by faith, not philosophy.

 

[graceandpeace]

Calvinism teaches that God not only knows all things evil but brings them all to pass.

Where did evil come from before God created the angels and man? Is evil eternal?

I don't believe "evil" is eternal. I believe God knew what evil was eternally.



I also have come to see that Him knowing what 'evil' was eternally has nothing to do with Him being responsible for evil..Evil was born when the first sin was created/evil came into existance in the realm of God when lucifer fell. It was the thought and action of lucifer that evil was born.

I believe that God allowed His creation freewill, to choose. It was the wrong choice by lucifer that evil was born.

I believe that if God did not allow freewill to choose, that He would be 'an evil god'....because, the evil we see today, which had it's beginning with lucifer, through freewill, would be God's fault.

There is no denying evil exists. God did NOT create it. Lucifer did...but, God did not force him too. He simply allowed Lucifer to have freewill, and without freewill, it would be God that is the Author of evil, and that is not the God I know and serve.

It seems to me that many are ok with thinking that God created evil. When you understand that 'evil is not created' until it is acted upon, you come to realise it could only be due to freewill..

..but, many wrongly interpret it...and, make God the Author of evil...even by claiming there was no freewill, they make God the worker of iniquity.

Sad state of affairs, if you ask me. I do not know clearly what calvinism upholds on the matter though.


I hope that explains it how I view it.

 

[ghost]

I don't believe "evil" is eternal. I believe God knew what evil was eternally.

I know what you are saying, but if it is in the mind of God (as all things would be, if God knows all things) then how is it not eternal? If God has seen evil eternally, evil exists in the mind of God eternally, even if it is not God performing the evil.

I also have come to see that Him knowing what 'evil' was eternally has nothing to do with Him being responsible for evil.

Agreed. Nevertheless, evil would be ever present in God's mind, including every destestable act and thought of man eternally, if God knows all things.

Evil was born when the first sin was created/evil came into existance in the realm of God when lucifer fell. It was the thought and action of lucifer that evil was born.

That may be true. I won't disagree.

I believe that God allowed His creation freewill, to choose. It was the wrong choice by lucifer that evil was born.

You could be right

I believe that if God did not allow freewill to choose, that He would be 'an evil god'....because, the evil we see today, which had it's beginning with lucifer, through freewill, would be God's fault.

Yes, sin is choosing independence.

There is no denying evil exists. God did NOT create it. Lucifer did...but, God did not force him too. He simply allowed Lucifer to have freewill, and without freewill, it would be God that is the Author of evil, and that is not the God I know and serve.

Nor I

It seems to me that many are ok with thinking that God created evil. When you understand that 'evil is not created' until it is acted upon, you come to realise it could only be due to freewill..

okay

..but, many wrongly interpret it...and, make God the Author of evil...even by claiming there was no freewill, they make God the worker of iniquity.

okay

I hope that explains it how I view it.

Yes, very similar to mine. However, the idea that God knows all evil perpetually in though and deed makes, at the very least, evil eternally in the mind of God, having never not existed, and existing perpetually throughout eternity.

I find that belief quite disturbing, along with the belief by some who have suggested that we will eternally have the knowledge of not only our own evil thoughts and acts, but those of others.

 

[Lon]

I don't believe "evil" is eternal. I believe God knew what evil was eternally.

Evil is a privation, a lack of God's purpose. We could assume that God has always known what happens outside of His desire. I don't think it a major issue but such can affect thinking in other areas of our theology as it does with God's omniscience and whether He learns something new.

It seems to me that many are ok with thinking that God created evil. When you understand that 'evil is not created' until it is acted upon, you come to realise it could only be due to freewill..

Some, I don't think many.

..but, many wrongly interpret it...and, make God the Author of evil...even by claiming there was no freewill, they make God the worker of iniquity.

Sad state of affairs, if you ask me. I do not know clearly what calvinism upholds on the matter though.


I hope that explains it how I view it.

Calvin believed in free will, just not to the extent most assume it. It is ever true that when sinners, we are 'free' from God, in bondage to sin and that believers are free from sin and bound happily to our Creator. As such, free will is qualified in our view and we see it free in only certain and specific aspects. We don't believe the will is ever entirely free (of course most of us agree with this specific dilineation). So then, when a Calvinist is saying no free-will, he is specifically not saying in all ways it is not free, but rather that for specific discussions, we would disagree with the freedom expressed. I.E. we are not free as sinners to follow after God until sin is taken care of. We are not free to do as we like as believers because we are bound to Christ's will and etc.
-Lon

 

[Lon]

Yes, very similar to mine. However, the idea that God knows all evil perpetually in though and deed makes, at the very least, evil eternally in the mind of God, having never not existed, and existing perpetually throughout eternity.

A perfect God has a perfect knowledge of evil, that is, He can know of its existence without it tainting anything of Him at all.
2Co 5:21 For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I find that belief quite disturbing, along with the belief by some who have suggested that we will eternally have the knowledge of not only our own evil thoughts and acts, but those of others.

My speculation further: We will retain knowledge but it will change/morph, such that I believe I agree with you to an extent, it will become something else as we obtain the righteousness of God.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as He is pure.

 

[ghost]

Calvin believed in free will, just not to the extent most assume it. It is ever true that when sinners, we are 'free' from God, in bondage to sin and that believers are free from sin and bound happily to our Creator. As such, free will is qualified in our view and we see it free in only certain and specific aspects. We don't believe the will is ever entirely free (of course most of us agree with this specific dilineation). So then, when a Calvinist is saying no free-will, he is specifically not saying in all ways it is not free, but rather that for specific discussions, we would disagree with the freedom expressed.

Does Nang and AMR agree with this?

 

[Nick M]

A "new thought" for God would mean He did not know, hence was not perfectly omniscient, including knowing all knowable possibilities.

AMR

Jeremiah 19

4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

"To see what he would name them?" -No
Because God gave man dominion (responsibility) over them.
How does that support the open view?

Yes. It was not decreed beforehand. The Bible clearly states this more than once that God has not hashed out every single detail in advance. The decision is up to us to trust him. God did not know what the animals were called. Thanks for the answer AMR nor Nang wanted to give. :e4e:

 

[Nang]

Did, now what?

Sorry. Meant post #45. I would copy and paste the statements that imply your concerns but I only have access to my phone today to make replies.

 

[ghost]

Jeremiah 19

4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Was God lying when he said this? Even if someone believes that it is saying that it did not originate with Him, God says it did not come into His mind. If He knows all things eternally, then it is always present in His mind.

 

[Nick M]

The weakest God is the Calvinist version. The one that can not interact, react, and change courses inside of his creation. Of course he didn't lie. He never thought a pervsersion like that.

 

[Nang]

Does Nang and AMR agree with this?

I believe we are all volitional creatures with God-given moral agency with which we are responsible and accountable before God to submit our human wills to His sovereign will.

AMR will state the same a bit differently. None of us believe men are so free-willed that one can act or make choices autonomously from God.

Nang