Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

[Ktoyou]

Yes, one may be OSAS and MAD and still believe God knows the future. What so many assume is it has to be control

 

[Delmar]

How then does God, in His mind, take into account and not take into account our sins eternally?

Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?

I'm not exactly sure I understand the question. You know that I am not in the camp that believes God knows the entire future, correct?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?

God does not think as do finite creatures. He is not deliberating. God knows and His knowledge is intuitive--not discursive wherein we as creatures, accrete knowledge proceeding logically from the known to the unknown. God knows in one eternal, all-comprehensive act, not successive.

God's knowledge is is independent, i.e., it does in no way depend upon his creatures or their actions, but solely upon his own infinite intuition of all things possible in the light of his own reason, and of all things actual and future in the light of his own eternal purpose.

A "new thought" for God would mean He did not know, hence was not perfectly omniscient, including knowing all knowable possibilities.

AMR

 

[ghost]

You specifically asked about what God has always known. What God has always known is theologically distinguished from God's purposes and good pleasures.

I absolutely agree that we can separate His purpose, will, intent, desire, "good pleasure" etc., from what He knows, but again, you are missing the big picture, and I cannot understand how or why you don't see it.

God decrees were not based upon His foreknowledge

That is not what I'm suggesting at all.

God's decrees were based upon His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name.

My view of God is that God is good. Whatever God decrees, purposes, intends, wills, etc., is good. And this is why the god of Calvinism (who is accused of knowing all things) cannot be good. I will explain why (though I'm not sure you'll understand) after I address the other posts.

This is a God-centered understanding. (Ephesians 1:9-12; Romans 8:28-30; 9:14-24)

Eph 1:9-12 does not prove that God knows all things eternally in His mind. It only addresses, what I fully believe, that God has purposed His will toward us concerning Christ. All these things being so before the foundation of the world.

Rom 2:28-30 simply tells us that all those in Christ, according to His foreknowledge concerning His purpose (which He, being God, can bring to pass) are predestined to be conformed to His image (an event) having called, justified, and glorified us. Again, there is no evidence of any of this being eternally in the mind of God. For ALL things to be eternally known by God removes the possibility of anything being conceived by God.

Rom 9:14-24 concerns Gentiles being called also

I would suppose you would make the common and erroneous Arminian argument, that God elected to extend grace to sinners according to His foreknowledge of their choices, rather than according to His will, good pleasure and divine purposes to bring glory to His name.

Nope. Not what I believe, nor does it make anymore sense than what you believe.

Such proves to be a man-centered understanding.

Just like what you believe.

Until you are able to distinguish between divine intent and foreknowledge, you will continue to be confused and thus find it needful to resort to emotional tactics; blaspheming and accusing God of causing the sins of men.

The god you believe in is blasphemous, as you have plainly shown us in this thread, having accused Him of knowing all things eternally. Perhaps you would like to retract that declaration, though I suppose you won't, because you still fail to understand it's implications.

God is "eternally" good, and all that He purposes, intends, wills, desires, is good, and He, being God, is fully capable of bringing His good intentions to pass, without having to fully know all things eternally.

 

[ghost]

In my estimation, we are guessing because we are trying to apprehend the mind and purposes of God (finite cannot apprehend infinite).

Okay Lon, but Calvinism attempts to do this by claiming that God knows everything eternally, which is fabricating a God that is very disturbing, and in fact not a good God. It would be impossible for Him to be.

1) God is infinite which means He is beyond our ability to completely grasp.

Yet, Calvinism claims to, and attributes to Him eternal knowledge of all things. Would you like to state that Calvinism is wrong about this? I believe that you believe that God is good, and He cannot be if He knows all things eternally.

2) Nothing is outside of God.

Really? God is evil and good? Are you sure?

God has given us glimpses and directions for how to think of Him.

And He never gives us the idea that He knows all things eternally.

Whatever proceeds, then, must necessarily originate in Him as the source of all things.

God is the source of all things good, for God is good, not evil.

And here is the crux of your problem... If God knows all things evil eternally, then they are just as much a part of God as His goodness. If His foreknowledge consists of every evil perpetrated by man and is eternally in His Mind than evil is part of who God is. Do you believe as Nang does, that all things earthy are eternally known, or worse, decreed by God? Do you believe, and suggest, that Calvinism teaches that every murder, rape, homosexual act, child molestation, and other detestable behaviors have ALWAYS been a part of the knowledge of God, making them part of who He is?

Let us consider Enyart's question: "Can God write a new song?" In answering, we have to take into account at least two things, that it would necessarily exist only by His sustaining power, and as such, that power has always existed. Also, we must recognize our own finiteness. For us, things are new because we are finite. That is, if we see something outside of ourselves, it is indeed new to us.

It doesn't matter what is new to us. Forget about us, we are discussing what YOU (Calvinism) claim that God knows eternally (all things). Either He does or He does not. If YOU claim He does, then God has never been separated from evil, for it is in His mind eternally (according to you).

 

[ghost]

Ghost,

This is actually the basic view of Catholic and mainstream Protestant alike. The only group denying God's knowledge of past, present, and future are open theists, who deny God can know the future.

Well, that's quite disturbing, but not surprising.

Don't know why you think this is just a Calvinist issue.

I don't. I think most people who claim to believe in Jesus have a skewed view of God.

A good starting point is Shaw's exposition here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/shaw/shaw_02.html

From your link:

God is all-knowing. In his sight all things are open and manifest. He has a perfect knowledge of himself, and he only knows himself perfectly.

If that is the definition of "all knowing" then who would disagree with that, because there is nothing in what he just said that indicates that God has known all things eternally. God knows all that is "in His sight", that is, all that can be known, or that He chooses to know.

He knows all things besides himself, whether they be past, present, or to come, in our way of measuring them by time.

There you go, the reformed position is that God knows, and has eternally known all things evil, making them part of who God is.

He knows all creatures, from the greatest to the least; he knows all the actions of his creatures, whether secret or open; all their words, thoughts, and intentions.

Again, I have no problem with God seeing all things "in His sight" and therefore knowing all that can be known, but reformed theology makes a leap the Bible does not make, and makes God into a being that eternally has all things evil in His mind.

Hence the Scripture declares, "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good."–Prov. xv. 3. "He is acquainted with all our ways, there is not a word in our tongue but he knoweth it altogether, and he understandeth our thought afar off."–Ps.cxxxix. 2-4. "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."–Acts xv. 18.

Again, God knows all that can be known, for all the evil that has been done by man is seen by God, including the thoughts and intents of the heart. Still no Biblical support for the claim that God eternally knows all things.

Yea, be knows the most contingent events: the actions of free agents, and all events concerned in them, were always known with certainty to him

The Bible does not state this, so it is therefore a concoction created by the reformers. Nothing more than an evil attribute attributed to God.

so that, though they be contingent in their own nature, or ever so uncertain as to us, yet, in reality, nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. We cannot doubt this, when we consider the numerous prophecies, relating to things of this kind, that have received a most exact and circumstantial accomplishment, many ages after the prophecies were announced.

He is God, He can bring to pass whatever He wills, and He also knows and understands the heart, desires, and intentions of man. For example, God knew and chose Judas, not because He had an eternal view into what Judas would do, but because He fully knew a man who would choose to betray.

 

[zippy2006]

If the temporal events are a fulfillment of His eternal purpose, then would you say that those temporal events were eternally fully known? If so, then how can anything ever be conceived as a purpose?

Ghost,

You are thinking of God's knowledge of "future" events as if God is standing at one place in time as we do. If a man tells me today exactly what I will do tomorrow, then my freedom would be limited. That's not what we mean when we say that God knows the future.

If a man tells me that I am eating an apple because he is currently watching me eat an apple, then my freedom is not limited. He knows I am eating an apple because I have freely chosen to eat it. That is precisely the vital distinction that must be seen in the Settled View: God knows our future free choices because He sees us freely choose them. It isn't that we act a certain way because God forces us to act that way by His foreknowledge, but rather that He knows because we act.

-zip :e4e:

 

[ghost]

You know that I am not in the camp that believes God knows the entire future, correct?

Yes, I know

I'm not exactly sure I understand the question.

Calvinism suggests that God has eternally in His mind the knowledge of all things, thus making all things part of who God is. If taking into account our sins is part of the eternal knowledge of God, then at no present reality in His mind is He not taking sins into account. If not taking into account our sins is part of the eternal knowledge of God then at no present reality in His mind is He taking our sins into account. He cannot be both. This is the problem with removing the sequence of events from the mind of God. God moves, creates, considers, acts etc. He is a living God, not the god of the reformers who have limited Him by claiming that He knows all things eternally.

 

[ghost]

Ghost,

You are thinking of God's knowledge of "future" events as if God is standing at one place in time as we do. If a man tells me today exactly what I will do tomorrow, then my freedom would be limited. That's not what we mean when we say that God knows the future.

If a man tells me that I am eating an apple because he is currently watching me eat an apple, then my freedom is not limited. He knows I am eating an apple because I have freely chosen to eat it. That is precisely the vital distinction that must be seen in the Settled View: God knows our future free choices because He sees us freely choose them. It isn't that we act a certain way because God forces us to act that way by His foreknowledge, but rather that He knows because we act.

-zip :e4e:

I know all about those two opposing views, but that is not what I'm discussing. It's not so much a question of what God knows, but when He knows it. Your view still has God eternally knowing every detestable act. It has evil being in the mind of God eternally, never not being part of Him.

 

[Nang]

Yes, I know

Calvinism suggests that God has eternally in His mind the knowledge of all things, thus making all things part of who God is.

This is Pantheism, not Calvinism.

If taking into account our sins is part of the eternal knowledge of God, then at no present reality in His mind is He not taking sins into account.

But knowing of our sins does not make God a part our sins.

This is the problem with removing the sequence of events from the mind of God.

If you are going to insist that God thinks and works sequentially, then you have lowered Him from heaven and made Him like man.

God moves, creates, considers, acts etc. He is a living God, not the god of the reformers who have limited Him by claiming that He knows all things eternally.

God knowing all things "eternally" proves to be more your term than mine. God knows all things about His creation because He is Creator. Not especially because He is eternal.

Can you even define "eternal?" I doubt so, for such an existence is beyond our human experience and finite minds.

As we discuss and attempt to learn about our Lord, it is best to stick with His revelation of Himself (Holy Scriptures), for without a doubt divine and total omniscience is taught throughout.

Nang

 

[zippy2006]

I know all about those two opposing views, but that is not what I'm discussing. It's not so much a question of what God knows, but when He knows it.

And that is a distinction I made: God does not know it temporally prior, as a man would. God does not exist in time in that way.

Your view still has God eternally knowing every detestable act. It has evil being in the mind of God eternally, never not being part of Him.

What is precisely your criticism?

Yes God can see evil at all times, not only at limited times. I mean your own view has evil being in the mind of God, just not eternally. The only reason God sees evil is because we do evil.

 

[Nick M]

Isn't it limiting God's ability to think a new thought if He knows everything eternally?

Ask a Calvinist if God can write a new song. (something even the no talent Justin Bieber can probably do)

 

[Nick M]

GhostThe only group denying God's knowledge of past, present, and future are open theists, who deny God can know the future.

Why does Moses say God brought the animals before Adam?




*hanging on tight for the spin*

 

[ghost]

The only reason God sees evil is because we do evil.

Correct. Yet, you and the "reformers" claim that the evil men do is eternally in the mind of God. God never not having known every evil thought or act of man. God has seen the evil man has done/doing, but nowhere does the bible teach that God knows every evil eternally in eternity.

 

[Nick M]

I take him literal when he says he doesn't remember all things I do that I deserve to die over. If he is all powerful, then he can wipe it (the actions of dead flesh) from history.

 

[ghost]

This is Pantheism, not Calvinism.

Not sure there is a difference.

But knowing of our sins does not make God a part our sins.

It does make our sins part of God, if He has never not been apart from them.

If you are going to insist that God thinks and works sequentially, then you have lowered Him from heaven and made Him like man.

No, God has made us in His image. You have it backwards.

God knowing all things "eternally" proves to be more your term than mine.

Well then end the discussion and state that God does not know all things eternally or in eternity and we can agree.

God knows all things about His creation because He is Creator.

:thumb:

Can you even define "eternal?"

God is eternal.

I doubt so, for such an existence is beyond our human experience and finite minds.

Yet you have attributed to God, whom you claim is beyond your human mind, the false belief that He knows all evil eternally in eternity.

As we discuss and attempt to learn about our Lord, it is best to stick with His revelation of Himself (Holy Scriptures),

I agree. Where is your proof that God knows all evil thoughts and deeds eternally in eternity.

 

[zippy2006]

Correct. Yet, you and the "reformers" claim that the evil men do is eternally in the mind of God. God never not having known every evil thought or act of man. God has seen the evil man has done/doing, but nowhere does the bible teach that God knows every evil eternally in eternity.

So what? :idunno: Is your claim only that the Bible doesn't lay out the philosophical extrapolation of God's omniscience? That doesn't surprise me, and there are any number of things the Bible doesn't explicitly go into, such as the Trinity and your own "Open view."

It isn't a Biblical contention, it is a philosophical one. I see the Bible's witness that God knows all things as including the future; apparently you don't. The question is whether the future is a thing to be known, not whether the Bible explicitly points one way or another (for it doesn't, and if it does then we would have to admit that a huge majority of Biblical scholars and Christians believe the Bible claims the Settled View).

Point being, the Settled View is not illogical, it does not limit God, and it does not limit our freedom.

:e4e:

 

[Nang]

Where is your proof that God knows all evil thoughts and deeds eternally in eternity.

Your language aside, proof of God's absolute foreknowledge is the revelations of the "Everlasting Covenant" and the "Everlasting Gospel," achieved by the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8

If there was no divine knowledge of sin, there would have been no necessity to provide redemption through Jesus Christ.

Nang

 

[ghost]

It isn't a Biblical contention, it is a philosophical one.

Agreed. Thank you.

I see the Bible's witness that God knows all things as including the future; apparently you don't.

But you just said... oh never mind. :doh:

Point being, the Settled View is not illogical, it does not limit God, and it does not limit our freedom.

It does limit God, it takes away any ability to no longer know evil thoughts and acts done by man, and it takes away His ability to think a new thought.

 

[ghost]

If there was no divine knowledge of sin, there would have been no necessity to provide redemption through Jesus Christ.

I'm not saying, nor have I suggested, that God did not know that man would need a Savior having concluded to "Let us make man in our image".