Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

ghost

New member
Hall of Fame
he also said this:

Just because God is free to choose does NOT mean He would or could.
"Could" grace, He said "could".

I hope you get it soon.
I get that you are stubbornly proud, even when faced with the truth that everyone but you can easily comprehend.

Take away the choice and you make God a robotic entity
Can God choose to not be God? Does it make Him a "robot" for not being free to have the "choice"? Can you choose to walk through a brick wall? Are you a robot?

Grow up, swallow your pride, admit your error, and move on.
 

godrulz

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Calvinism would have us believe that since God is eternal, He knows all things that are, have been or will be. Is this true?

Have I represented Calvinism's view correctly?

This is traditional, classical theism (eternal now timelessness)...exhaustive definite foreknowledge. Arminians would also agree with this, but for different reasons (simple foreknowledge vs determinism).

Open Theism has a more biblical, coherent view (some of the future is known, while other aspects are open/unsettled/unknown).

www.opentheism.info
 

graceandpeace

New member
"Could" grace, He said "could".

I get that you are stubbornly proud, even when faced with the truth that everyone but you can easily comprehend.

Can God choose to not be God? Does it make Him a "robot" for not being free to have the "choice"? Can you choose to walk through a brick wall? Are you a robot?

Grow up, swallow your pride, admit your error, and move on.

I dont think you can read well.

He said this:

Quote:
Yes, God is free and therefore free to choose

and, I said this:


Just because God is free to choose does NOT mean He would or could.


I hope you get it soon.

Take away the choice and you make God a robotic entity, and that is not the God I know and serve; that is the calvinistic God.

I do NOT believe God could.

I said that.

I DO believe He has the choice.

So, did he..unless he wants to say that what he said was not what he said.

I am not afraid to admit error, Ghost, but you did not read it well.
 

ghost

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Can God choose to not be God?
Take away the choice and you make God a robotic entity
Okay, YOUR answer is God CAN choose to no longer be God.

It's obvious now what kind of a god you serve.

What the Bible says God CANNOT do, even thou you say He can:

God cannot lie Titus 1:2 - YOU say He can, but chooses not to

God cannot be tempted with evil James 1:13 - YOU say He can, but chooses not to

God cannot deny Himself 2 Timothy 2:13 - You say He can deny Himself, but just chooses not to

You have a false god of your own imagination.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Neither does a Calvinistic (deterministic) position preserve moral responsibility, for ought implies can.
Zippy2006,

The question of the difference between ought and can (with regard to man) is important, just as is the matter of relating the will of God to the manner of its expression.

There is no ought to with regard to God's behavior—whatever God wills for himself is right ethically, and aligns with God’s being and knowledge. If some evil is permitted to be done by some creature, the proper response by believers is to view it as allowed for the greater purpose of its ultimate frustration and destruction. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

God defines that which is morally proper to do, because the creature is naturally subject to his Creator. Now here explanation is sought to account for the fact of human rebellion, man's defiance of the expressed will of God. The one explanation that aligns with Scripture’s description of divine providence is that God's imperatives do not consistently line up with God's indicatives prior to the final moment of history, when they line up perfectly.

The basic or descriptive mood of speech is the indicative. It the sort of speech one regularly encounters in narrative, whether in past, present—excluding the content of dialog. The future tense can also be in the indicative mood, where description is the purpose[/i]. Thus, the statement:"Jesus will be coming again," is indicative.

For example, "Even so, Come! Lord Jesus," is in the imperative mood. Carefully note the rather obvious contextual limits on this being a command believers issue to Christ. In Luther's words, "Nothing else is signified than that which ought to be done." Morality implies oughtness. To say that humans are responsible to God is to say that they ought to obey Him.

The statement by Luther may sound like it comes in the context of dealing with the argument that whatever Scripture commands (imperative mood) assumes the possibility of fulfillment. In other words, as you are arguing, ought implies can by logical or moral necessity. Such an argument assumes that God—either because of his knowledge or his moral character—never demands of anyone that which lies beyond their ability to perform. Your argument reads this belief into the imperatives of Scripture.

But that's not a logical implication of the imperative mood at all. There is no "moral necessity" for God to limit his commands to that which men can naturally perform. The possibility that a creature might resent him for such a command is irrelevant; and resentment would only occur to the sinful creature anyway, while a believer would be only too willing to die in the attempt. Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Your notion that commands such as, "Look unto me, all you ends of the earth, and be saved," means that dead men can look to God apart from God’s making them alive, erroneously takes the theologically descriptive indicative (bound/captive/enslaved will) and subordinates it to philosophical presuppositions that

(1) men possess the power of contrary choice; and
(2) God deals with men "fairly"—God lowers the bar for men in their fallen condition, and doesn't ask as much from them as God asked of Adam and then of Jesus Christ.

Again, none of these humanistic assumptions are tethered to the imperative mood.

Human responsibility does not require neutrality of the will in order for the person to be morally accountable. Here is exactly where the Reformed and others differ. Others, like yourself, argue that moral responsibility necessitates that the person is at a crossroads and can equally choose either option. We Reformed disagree.

Zippy, what Scripture commands (imperative) indeed is what ought to be done. "He did/didn't," "he does/doesn't," "he will/won't," are all indicative expressions of the moving relation from "ought" to "is."

We note from Scripture that no man is neutral towards Christ, who said, He who is not with me is against me” (Matthew 12:30, and the logical converse, “He that is not against us is for us”, Mark 9:40). In turn, this means ”No man can serve two masters” (Matt. 6:24). A person cannot serve two and he cannot serve none. At any given moment, the will of man is serving God or serving sin. Therefore, moral neutrality is impossible. Like Dylan sang, You gotta serve somebody. It might be the Devil and it might be the Lord. But you gotta serve somebody. ;)

In fact, non-neutrality is required from the very nature of moral responsibility, for to not to be for a certain moral law is to be against it. Therefore, the pretense that one can be morally neutral is an escape and a cover up of enmity to God. All men know that God exists and by nature are opposed to Him. They are not neutral, they are guilty. Hence, moral responsibility in man is synonymous with moral culpability. We are able to be guilty, and we are guilty.

Finally it is a mistake to suppose that the will is self-determining. The will is no more independent than it is neutral. The will may in turn affect other things, but the will is not itself self-determining. God alone is self-determining—it is self-evident if we carefully look at the will. A man chooses something for a reason, namely, because that something seemed like the best thing at the time. Thus, the will is internally affected by the mind. But the mind is in turn affected by the nature. Hence, and from Scripture, we see that a good nature produces good wills; a bad nature produces bad wills (Matt. 7:17). All men are born with a nature and all men always follows their nature. If a man follows a good nature he is praiseworthy; if a man follows a bad nature, he is blameworthy. This is responsibility.

The Reformed reject the notion that the human will must be totally free from all intervention in order to be responsible. Arminians and others argue that man must be totally free and independent. But, the Reformed reply, “Why? Who says this? Not God in Scripture. If anything, the very notion of independent wills is a symptom of sinful wills. Furthermore, the Reformed rightly observe, using reductio ad absurdum, that when human wills are sinful, the theory of Arminians and others can be used to defend the human will from punishment. For example, John was “free” to choose A or B. So if John is truly “free” either way, how can John be punished? Rather, the Reformed say that man is not “free” like the Arminians and others claim.

Moreover, the Reformed argue that the human will is not off-limits to God. The human will is not a holy of holies where God cannot tread. ;) God can and does intervene in the human will. Logically, if it can be shown from the Word of God that God does intervene in the human will, it follows that He can. And if God can, then God is sovereign and man is still responsible. Responsibility of man is not destroyed by Divine intervention. God is First Cause of all things. No one in Christendom disputes this. However, what is often overlooked, misunderstood, or even denied, is that God uses second causes. The point being, the human will is just a second cause which God uses. God does not destroy the human will, rather God uses the human will according to its nature.

Furthermore, many Calvinists I've met affirm such a "libertarian freedom" before the Fall.
No they do not. This is nothing but your erroneous assignment of a label, libertarian freedom to their affirmation that Adam was able to sin and able not to sin before the Fall. Adam was not unbounded by his nature, as libertarian free will ultimately entails, any more than God is unbounded by his nature. God created our first parents with the moral capacity to sin or not to sin before the Fall, and though their sin severely affected their wills it did not abolish them—unlike the regenerate, the unregenerate is not able to not sin.

Your ought implies can

I will grant that in some contexts, this principle does apply. At work I would operate under the assumption that the responsibilities of every worker should be a fair measure of their abilities, and their abilities should be related to their responsibilities. But this principle simply does not apply all the time. For example, only the baseball player at bat has the ability to drive home runs or to strike out. If the player at bat strikes out, losing the game, the whole team loses. Which situation here fits that of Adam when he fell into sin? ;) Was he the office worker who alone was fired for his failure? Or was he a player up to bat for the entire team who struck out? Hint: Romans 5:19.

After Adam’s fall into sin, Adam no longer had the moral ability to meet his continuing moral obligation. Adam retained the moral ought but lost the moral can. And all his progeny inherited the same situation.

That was but one dimension of the death God had warned would result from sin. However, Adam did not, through his disobedience lose any of his moral responsibility to obey God. Just as squandering the family inheritance does not somehow automatically lessen financial obligations, so Adam's loss of original righteousness did not relieve him or his posterity of their obligation to obey God.

Scripture teaches that those who are accustomed to doing evil ought instead to do good. Scripture also teaches that those who are accustomed to doing evil can no more do good than the leopard can change his spots (Jeremiah 13:23). Your axiom, “ought implies can” simply proves too much. Limiting its application to Gospel obedience is quite arbitrary. If ought implies can, then everybody has the moral ability to live a sinless life because living a sinless life is what everyone ought to do. Zippy, the consistent application of your axiom leads to pure Pelagianism, the teaching that fallen man has the moral ability to save himself by living a morally perfect life. That just won’t do.

The Church has always held that man retains free will, and the position was solidified with Augustine.
Zippy, I think if you read Augustine more thoroughly, you may come to different, that is, more well-thought out, conclusions than your simplistic observation. But this is a topic for other threads. For your further review, here is a good starter:
http://unapologetica.blogspot.com/2009/11/augustine-on-monergism-summary.html ;)

AMR
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Not quite.

God is eternal, of course, but it is because God is The Sovereign Creator that He knows all about His creation and creatures.

Nang

Does He have foreknowledge because of foreordination/determinism or some other mechanism?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
So is there something He does not know?

He does not know the unknowable, such as where Yoda is right now. He also does not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge due to His sovereign choice to create a free will, non-deterministic universe.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I don't think anyone can really explain it.

God is eternal and infinite, therefore He knows everything, and has always known everything.

There are plenty of settled theists and open theists around here that will make you think you are watching some time travel-science fiction movie with a big dose of philosophy thrown in.

I can't explain it.

Good Luck!


The problem is your incoherent view. Open Theists can explain it in a more biblically, philosophically satisfying way.:drum:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
And I'm sure this has been asked before...

So, when God says He no longer remembers our sins, it really means that He doesn't forget them, but that He doesn't take them into account?

Bingo. An omniscient God, even by most Open Theists standards (some TOL OVTs waffle), cannot literally forget sins, but He can choose to not bring them up again or hold them against us based on Christ. Forgiveness, even in human terms, does not require amnesia.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
He does not know the unknowable, such as where Yoda is right now. He also does not have exhaustive definite foreknowledge due to His sovereign choice to create a free will, non-deterministic universe.

Bah . . .

There is no such thing as "unknowable" to God. God knows all.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Bingo. An omniscient God, even by most Open Theists standards (some TOL OVTs waffle), cannot literally forget sins, but He can choose to not bring them up again or hold them against us based on Christ. Forgiveness, even in human terms, does not require amnesia.

Justication (forgiveness) is a legal rendering, not an emotional or mental gymnastic.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Zippy2006,

The question of the difference between ought and can (with regard to man) is important, just as is the matter of relating the will of God to the manner of its expression.

There is no ought to with regard to God's behavior—whatever God wills for himself is right ethically, and aligns with God’s being and knowledge. If some evil is permitted to be done by some creature, the proper response by believers is to view it as allowed for the greater purpose of its ultimate frustration and destruction. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

God defines that which is morally proper to do, because the creature is naturally subject to his Creator. Now here explanation is sought to account for the fact of human rebellion, man's defiance of the expressed will of God. The one explanation that aligns with Scripture’s description of divine providence is that God's imperatives do not consistently line up with God's indicatives prior to the final moment of history, when they line up perfectly.

The basic or descriptive mood of speech is the indicative. It the sort of speech one regularly encounters in narrative, whether in past, present—excluding the content of dialog. The future tense can also be in the indicative mood, where description is the purpose[/i]. Thus, the statement:"Jesus will be coming again," is indicative.

For example, "Even so, Come! Lord Jesus," is in the imperative mood. Carefully note the rather obvious contextual limits on this being a command believers issue to Christ. In Luther's words, "Nothing else is signified than that which ought to be done." Morality implies oughtness. To say that humans are responsible to God is to say that they ought to obey Him.

The statement by Luther may sound like it comes in the context of dealing with the argument that whatever Scripture commands (imperative mood) assumes the possibility of fulfillment. In other words, as you are arguing, ought implies can by logical or moral necessity. Such an argument assumes that God—either because of his knowledge or his moral character—never demands of anyone that which lies beyond their ability to perform. Your argument reads this belief into the imperatives of Scripture.

But that's not a logical implication of the imperative mood at all. There is no "moral necessity" for God to limit his commands to that which men can naturally perform. The possibility that a creature might resent him for such a command is irrelevant; and resentment would only occur to the sinful creature anyway, while a believer would be only too willing to die in the attempt. Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Your notion that commands such as, "Look unto me, all you ends of the earth, and be saved," means that dead men can look to God apart from God’s making them alive, erroneously takes the theologically descriptive indicative (bound/captive/enslaved will) and subordinates it to philosophical presuppositions that

(1) men possess the power of contrary choice; and
(2) God deals with men "fairly"—God lowers the bar for men in their fallen condition, and doesn't ask as much from them as God asked of Adam and then of Jesus Christ.

Again, none of these humanistic assumptions are tethered to the imperative mood.

Human responsibility does not require neutrality of the will in order for the person to be morally accountable. Here is exactly where the Reformed and others differ. Others, like yourself, argue that moral responsibility necessitates that the person is at a crossroads and can equally choose either option. We Reformed disagree.

Zippy, what Scripture commands (imperative) indeed is what ought to be done. "He did/didn't," "he does/doesn't," "he will/won't," are all indicative expressions of the moving relation from "ought" to "is."

We note from Scripture that no man is neutral towards Christ, who said, He who is not with me is against me” (Matthew 12:30, and the logical converse, “He that is not against us is for us”, Mark 9:40). In turn, this means ”No man can serve two masters” (Matt. 6:24). A person cannot serve two and he cannot serve none. At any given moment, the will of man is serving God or serving sin. Therefore, moral neutrality is impossible. Like Dylan sang, You gotta serve somebody. It might be the Devil and it might be the Lord. But you gotta serve somebody. ;)

In fact, non-neutrality is required from the very nature of moral responsibility, for to not to be for a certain moral law is to be against it. Therefore, the pretense that one can be morally neutral is an escape and a cover up of enmity to God. All men know that God exists and by nature are opposed to Him. They are not neutral, they are guilty. Hence, moral responsibility in man is synonymous with moral culpability. We are able to be guilty, and we are guilty.

Finally it is a mistake to suppose that the will is self-determining. The will is no more independent than it is neutral. The will may in turn affect other things, but the will is not itself self-determining. God alone is self-determining—it is self-evident if we carefully look at the will. A man chooses something for a reason, namely, because that something seemed like the best thing at the time. Thus, the will is internally affected by the mind. But the mind is in turn affected by the nature. Hence, and from Scripture, we see that a good nature produces good wills; a bad nature produces bad wills (Matt. 7:17). All men are born with a nature and all men always follows their nature. If a man follows a good nature he is praiseworthy; if a man follows a bad nature, he is blameworthy. This is responsibility.

The Reformed reject the notion that the human will must be totally free from all intervention in order to be responsible. Arminians and others argue that man must be totally free and independent. But, the Reformed reply, “Why? Who says this? Not God in Scripture. If anything, the very notion of independent wills is a symptom of sinful wills. Furthermore, the Reformed rightly observe, using reductio ad absurdum, that when human wills are sinful, the theory of Arminians and others can be used to defend the human will from punishment. For example, John was “free” to choose A or B. So if John is truly “free” either way, how can John be punished? Rather, the Reformed say that man is not “free” like the Arminians and others claim.

Moreover, the Reformed argue that the human will is not off-limits to God. The human will is not a holy of holies where God cannot tread. ;) God can and does intervene in the human will. Logically, if it can be shown from the Word of God that God does intervene in the human will, it follows that He can. And if God can, then God is sovereign and man is still responsible. Responsibility of man is not destroyed by Divine intervention. God is First Cause of all things. No one in Christendom disputes this. However, what is often overlooked, misunderstood, or even denied, is that God uses second causes. The point being, the human will is just a second cause which God uses. God does not destroy the human will, rather God uses the human will according to its nature.

No they do not. This is nothing but your erroneous assignment of a label, libertarian freedom to their affirmation that Adam was able to sin and able not to sin before the Fall. Adam was not unbounded by his nature, as libertarian free will ultimately entails, any more than God is unbounded by his nature. God created our first parents with the moral capacity to sin or not to sin before the Fall, and though their sin severely affected their wills it did not abolish them—unlike the regenerate, the unregenerate is not able to not sin.

Your ought implies can

I will grant that in some contexts, this principle does apply. At work I would operate under the assumption that the responsibilities of every worker should be a fair measure of their abilities, and their abilities should be related to their responsibilities. But this principle simply does not apply all the time. For example, only the baseball player at bat has the ability to drive home runs or to strike out. If the player at bat strikes out, losing the game, the whole team loses. Which situation here fits that of Adam when he fell into sin? ;) Was he the office worker who alone was fired for his failure? Or was he a player up to bat for the entire team who struck out? Hint: Romans 5:19.

After Adam’s fall into sin, Adam no longer had the moral ability to meet his continuing moral obligation. Adam retained the moral ought but lost the moral can. And all his progeny inherited the same situation.

That was but one dimension of the death God had warned would result from sin. However, Adam did not, through his disobedience lose any of his moral responsibility to obey God. Just as squandering the family inheritance does not somehow automatically lessen financial obligations, so Adam's loss of original righteousness did not relieve him or his posterity of their obligation to obey God.

Scripture teaches that those who are accustomed to doing evil ought instead to do good. Scripture also teaches that those who are accustomed to doing evil can no more do good than the leopard can change his spots (Jeremiah 13:23). Your axiom, “ought implies can” simply proves too much. Limiting its application to Gospel obedience is quite arbitrary. If ought implies can, then everybody has the moral ability to live a sinless life because living a sinless life is what everyone ought to do. Zippy, the consistent application of your axiom leads to pure Pelagianism, the teaching that fallen man has the moral ability to save himself by living a morally perfect life. That just won’t do.

Zippy, I think if you read Augustine more thoroughly, you may come to different, that is, more well-thought out, conclusions than your simplistic observation. But this is a topic for other threads. For your further review, here is a good starter:
http://unapologetica.blogspot.com/2009/11/augustine-on-monergism-summary.html ;)

AMR





Man was made a volitional creature by God, for one purpose only . . . and that was that man should voluntarily subject and submit his God-given will (moral agency) to the sovereign will of God.

The refusal and failure to do so, is called "sin."

The ability to do so, is called "grace."

Nang
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
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Bah . . .

There is no such thing as "unknowable" to God. God knows all.

Really?

Genesis 2

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.

Genesis 22

12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Jeremiah 19

5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Really?

Genesis 2

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.


Do you really think God blessed Adam with this privilege of fellowship, due to Godly ignorance? I think not. This was a display of the promise given by God to Adam that Adam would have prominence and dominion over the animal kingdom.

And who exactly do you think gave Adam the knowledge of the species and the language skills, to so name them?



Genesis 22

12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

This entire episode with Abraham/Isaac was to teach that it is God alone who provides sacrifice that leads to life. Genesis 22:14

Jeremiah 19

5 they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind

A simply denial that any such wickedness abides in the purposes (mind) or moral requirements (Law) of Holy God.

Nang
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Then why have you failed to do so?

We are waiting . . .
Moreover, ever wonder why there are no full-fledged commentaries on any book or all of Scripture by open theist theologians?

It is a working hypothesis of mine that once such an endeavor were undertaken, the honest author would run headlong into so many clear teachings of Scripture contrary to their presuppositions that, rather than attempt to mount some tortuous open view interpretations of what they are reading, they would be forced to abandon the effort entirely. Hence, all we see from this fringe group is but bits and pieces of Scripture lifted from the full counsel of God being used to weakly support the open theist's incoherent theories.

I mean, really, one would think that at least the open theist equivalent to the Geneva Study Bible would at least be underway at this juncture, no? ;)

Where's the beef? :idunno:

Better get busy, godrulz!

AMR
 
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