Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Rosenritter]

My beliefs are from personal revelation and the bible, and cannot be changed by mere thought. Believe me I contemplate them nearly without ceasing.



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Pops, reply to the questions I'm putting to AMR then? I doubt I'll get straight answers from another Calvinist.

 

[Rosenritter]

Religious isn't the only tag to be placed on those types.

Surely you're not going to brand everyone who would say they heard God or an angel and declare them as a lair, tricked, or insane? Paul heard the voice of an angel at one point, I seem to recall.

 

[Rosenritter]

So one's will is bereft of motives or inclinations such that one always possesses the ability to do otherwise than what one actually does?

Your view implies the power of contrary choice means that it is always within the ability of the human will to believe or reject the gospel. Correct? If we have the natural capacity to believe or reject the gospel freely (in this libertarian free will sense of yours) why is there the need for the Holy Spirit in salvation at all, especially when the gospel is preached? If I ask you whether you could come to faith in Christ apart from any work of the Spirit, like all Christians, you would hopefully answer ‘no’.

AMR, woah.

When you ask a question, wait for the answer before running off after more windmills.

Has it ever occurred to you that the Holy Spirit might work in salvation not as a simple one-way override, but like the way one would talk with another, or the way a conversation has a back and forth protocol, and so forth? The Holy Spirit draws, if someone responds to the draw, it works a bit more, and so forth, and thus becomes the earnest of our salvation and eternal life.

When you want to make a friend, do you just waltz up and demand "YOU ARE MY FRIEND NOW" and judge those that panic and run away as being "predestined from the beginning of the world to think that you are creepy?"

When you ask a question, stop and wait for an answer. You went on for paragraphs more on your own assumption that your question was unanswerable, rhetorical, when it wasn't.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Surely you're not going to brand everyone who would say they heard God or an angel and declare them as a lair, tricked, or insane? Paul heard the voice of an angel at one point, I seem to recall.

Lair?? I don't believe God is speaking audibly to people today.

 

[Rosenritter]

it didnt mean to x out the word. looks that way but its a shadow of a tulip. bad illustrator

I thought it quite appropriate that the shadow of the TULIP overshadowed and crossed out the Bible.

That graphic must have been predestined to be like that.

 

[Rosenritter]

^
Christianity isn't liberal enough for atheists. Hell is a no-no for them because they think God should be some genie in the sky giving anyone what they want.

No, I don't think that's what gets the atheists. I think it's the utter depravity of the being of what you wrongly preach to them of what God is that makes them sick and want no part of it. I think it's the terrible example of what they see being called "Christian."

 

[Rosenritter]

You harbor the view of a skeptic.

however, I am an optimistic believer and hope to be a participant/instrument according to God's means (the preaching of the good news about Jesus Christ saving souls) by so witnessing to His saving grace.

I cannot directly talk with your nieces, but I can care about them and pray for their souls. And I do.

And I pray that God will convert your heart, so maybe some day they might hear the Gospel message directly from you!

Why would you pray? A true Calvinist doesn't believe that their prayers can have any effect on God's will.

 

[Rosenritter]

Other than the "Grace Gospel," there is NO other Gospel around today that can guarantee eternal life and the receiving of the Righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, as well. ALL other false gospels lead to "The Lake of Fire." Those who reject God's free gift of salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ will someday stand before God the Father and be judged by their WORKS. Subsequently, they will be cast into "The Lake of Fire." That will also be the same place where Satan and his ilk will spend eternity.

Reject the Grace Gospel and be incarcerated in eternal damnation and agony. The anguish will NEVER end. When you close your eyes in death, you will open them in a holding place called Hades until the Judgement. It's a place of torment and fire. These two places are spoken of in the Bible. You need not suffer this end. You MUST hear the Gospel and place ALL your faith in Christ as your Savior. Without God's Grace, you will suffer beyond human imagination. The anguish will linger on forever. There is no way out once you leave this world without Christ as your Savior. It scares me just thinking about it, it always has since I was 12 years old and not saved at the time.

Are you familiar with the parable of the sheep and the goats? What you just said.... doesn't mesh with the parable very well. How come the sheep which were astonished and said they'd never done anything for Christ were surprised to be received as his own? Likewise, the goats didn't come from a past thousand-years plus of roasting, or they wouldn't have been surprised when they were rejected.

 

[Rosenritter]

nothing wrong with graphic expressions. it expresses truths to very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very stubburn brothers and sisters. They has no clue how useless their theology are.

So much trash talk on this board.

So little going to the scriptures for the foundation of belief.

So many stupid memes.

 

[Rosenritter]

[FONT=&quot]On the other hand, you would have to look very hard to find the Reformed or Calvinist believer reticent to discuss that which he holds dear, unwilling to read in detail all that is offered up by the anti-Calvinist, and not open to correction offered up in honest and sincere dialog.[/FONT]

What world do you live in? The last real-life Calvinist I had a discussion with banned me from coming to his church again, after he got stuck in self-contradiction trying to prove Calvinism (and some other things.)

 

[Rosenritter]

Lair?? I don't believe God is speaking audibly to people today.

GM, talk to me by private message please.

 

[marhig]

Lair?? I don't believe God is speaking audibly to people today.

He does you know, and one way is through his people. I said some things about someone the other day from my past that i shouldn't have said. And I had a terrible conscience after. I went to God and said sorry, but still my conscience burned.

On Sunday morning I went to the little house meeting I go to, and we were reading. And someone said, to truly forgive others is to forget, if you keep bringing up the past and say things about others, then you haven't truly forgiven, and then in the meeting they started talking about not letting things stay in the heart. And it went right to my heart, I knew that God was talking to me, letting me know I was wrong and that I have to stop bringing up what happened in my past.

They didn't know what had happened, yet they spoke about what I had done wrong. I even had a bad conscience from waking that morning.

So later that day, i went and spoke to the people that I had told the things to, and told them I was wrong to do so, and that to truly forgive is to not bring it up again and that I was wrong before God to do what I did.

Then my conscience left me, and I felt better in my heart.

 

[beloved57]

Calvinist seldom talk about "Faith" they don't talk about it, because they don't have it.

Faith is a product of the Holy Spirit. Those that have faith are those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is only given to those that hear and believe the Gospel. No Gospel, no faith, no faith, no Holy Spirit, no Holy Spirit, no salvation, no salvation, eternal damnation.

You don't have Faith because you don't believe that Christ death alone saved them He died for, that is unbelief!

 

[popsthebuilder]

You were too quick to reply. I was just adding a post to note that citation should be 1 Cor. 11:19. I have corrected my original post. My apologies.



Nothing I have written implies "all" with respect to the anti-Calvinist. I took great pains to make sure I qualified my statements along those lines. Similarly, I also did not write anything that accords with your "utter error" summary. I maintained in my post that the two systems in question cannot be homogenized due to their differences. They both cannot be correct views at the same time and in the same situation. I am on record in numerous posts as considering Arminians brothers in the Lord until it can be demonstrated otherwise. Nevertheless, I consider them confused brothers, but brothers nonetheless. Sadly, most of those in the anti-Calvinist category posting herein do not extend me the same consideration.

I do not know what you mean by stating some can be elect and others followers of the elect. Among the lost there are only two categories: the unregenerated elect and the reprobate. You will need to expand your statement before I can respond with anything more reasonable.



I think they may indeed believe. Unfortunately they just do not believe what they think they believe. One need only examine one's private prayer life to see how their prayers actually reveal what they truly believe versus what they say they believe. Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.

The intellectually lazy man with unexamined assumptions is afloat at sea, borne about by every wind of doctrine that comes their way.

AMR

Thanks for clarifying.

I have two questions;

1)Are the elect supposed to guide others towards GOD?

2)based on scripture do you see the evidence for universal reconciliation, not now per say, but upon the end of times or the judgement?

Thank you humbly,
Peace


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[popsthebuilder]

Mark 10:21-24 KJV
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(22) And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
(23) And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
(24) And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

AMR, please clarify:

1) Jesus and the Holy Spirit wanted different things, or
2) Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not "drawing" this person when he was told to sell what he had and follow Christ.
3) Jesus didn't really want this person to follow him anyway, it was a mere show of trickery like the rest of the Bible that tells us that man has choices and that God wants people to love him but they will not

None of the three were questions, but all were false statements, intentionally attempting to show an error in the calvinistic perspective...and succeeding as far as I can tell.

Peace

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

Mark 10:21-24 KJV
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
(22) And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
(23) And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
(24) And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

AMR, please clarify:

1) Jesus and the Holy Spirit wanted different things, or
2) Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not "drawing" this person when he was told to sell what he had and follow Christ.
3) Jesus didn't really want this person to follow him anyway, it was a mere show of trickery like the rest of the Bible that tells us that man has choices and that God wants people to love him but they will not

Rosen, if you're NOT a Calvinist, I would suggest, not giving a Calvinist the answer to the question you're asking them. Such as you did in number two of your post. Most likely they will say God hadn't chosen that rich man, so, you're making it easy for them to rationalize their answer. Also, your PM is filled. you need to empty it in order for posters to get in touch with you.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

He does you know, and one way is through his people. I said some things about someone the other day from my past that i shouldn't have said. And I had a terrible conscience after. I went to God and said sorry, but still my conscience burned.

On Sunday morning I went to the little house meeting I go to, and we were reading. And someone said, to truly forgive others is to forget, if you keep bringing up the past and say things about others, then you haven't truly forgiven, and then in the meeting they started talking about not letting things stay in the heart. And it went right to my heart, I knew that God was talking to me, letting me know I was wrong and that I have to stop bringing up what happened in my past.

They didn't know what had happened, yet they spoke about what I had done wrong. I even had a bad conscience from waking that morning.

So later that day, i went and spoke to the people that I had told the things to, and told them I was wrong to do so, and that to truly forgive is to not bring it up again and that I was wrong before God to do what I did.

Then my conscience left me, and I felt better in my heart.

I'm only saying God isn't speaking AUDIBLY today in this Dispensation of Grace. God speaks to us through His word: the Holy Bible, the Holy Spirit, and through situations such as you brought up. However, He's not speaking through a burning bush and such.

 

[TulipBee]

Show me where it says that God denies mercy to anyone who demonstrates repentance and forgiveness and who changes his ways. His "will have mercy on whom he wills" is used to justify extension of mercy. Even those that he "hardeneth" it does not imply that he "hardeneth" those who were repentant, and even you must admit that if God can "harden" someone then he can also "unharden" at the appropriate time. Show me where it says that God will "harden" someone for eternity.

Ezekiel 33:11-13 KJV
(11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(12) Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
(13) When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.


God is not a Calvinist.

Break upon that dusty section of your Bible called the Old Testament and read the heart of our God. How can the Calvinist God tell the righteous "thou shalt live" and then that righteous person prove God wrong? That entire chapter of Ezekiel 33 is saying how God will judge us by our actions, and how that if we choose to turn one way or the other what matters is the ending thereof, not be beginning.

And certainly "decided before the beginning of the world" never even enters the equation.

Ezekiel 33:14-16 KJV
(14) Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
(15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(16) None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.


GOD IS NOT A CALVINIST.

God created calvinism but the goats don't get it

 

[TulipBee]

So much trash talk on this board.

So little going to the scriptures for the foundation of belief.

So many stupid memes.

a direct points for the unregenerates. bringing the dead back to the truths

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

God created calvinism

No. Calvin and his ilk did.