Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[marhig]

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 21:5-7 KJV
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Marhig, Jesus directly calls himself God using the most potent titles in the Old Testament. He says he is the LORD your God, he says that he will be the God of those that overcome. There is no other God. Regardless of what impressions you may have had earlier, or what analogies were used, when Jesus speaks here He is direct and absolute.

I don't think that Jesus calling God his God, and the disciples calling God the God and father of Jesus an analogy, or Jesus saying why do you call me good, there's none good but God, or Jesus saying eternal life is to know you the only true God, none are analogies they are clear statements.

Regarding Revelation, look at Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it*by his angel unto his servant John

It's clear that God gave the revelation to Jesus, and Jesus signified it through his angel who gave it to John. Right through revelation you would think that it is Jesus or God talking but it's the angel, yet the angel isn't God, but he is speaking and giving John only what has been given him to speak. Jesus got the revelation from God, and he spoke it through his angel to John.

Jesus says in John 5:19 that he does what the father does, and the angel does what Jesus does and this is how they are one. And when we obey God and live by his word, we become one with them too. John passed on the exact words that the angel told him to write, even saying that no words are to be added or taken away. God wants no flesh added to his word, when we are at one with him and Christ then we will speak what is given to us there then, fresh bread from heaven taken from the rivers of living water straight to the heart, ready to feed those who need it.

John 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am*he, and*that*I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things

Jesus only speaks what he is given, and he is under subjection to God, and God has exalted him to the highest in heaven at his right hand and the only way to God is through Christ Jesus.

But it clearly says at the beginning of the book of Revelation that God gave Jesus the revelation, so God is the God of Jesus also.

 

[marhig]

Huh ?

When Jesus sent his disciples out into all the world to preach the gospel he sent them to preach to every creature, it's clear that the gospel is to be preached to everyone giving all the chance to know God and to be saved. Not just a select few who were chosen before they were born.

The only way that Gods people are are elect is because they have holy spirit in there hearts and he is the elect one. We are just vessels passing on the message that the spirit gives us to bring others back to God.

I don't see myself as above or more special than anyone else. The only thing that is special is the manifestation of Christ, through the spirit in the heart of his people.

Once we start to see ourselves as saved and looking down others as never having a chance of knowing God because we are chosen and the only ones going to heaven, and they that aren't saved have been predestined to hell. Then we start going down a slippery slope like the Pharisees did when they thought that they were above others and looked down on others. Pride in a big no no with God.

A while after I started truly knowing God, I was out in my town shopping, and I looked around and it was packed with people. And an overwhelming feeling came over and through me, I can't explain it, it was sorrow and love at the same time, sorrow because I knew that many of these people didn't know God, and love because I wanted them all to know him like i did. And as i stood there and looked around I realised that God wants all these people back, whoever they are he wants them, I knew then in my heart that God loves everyone, and he wants all to hear the gospel so that they have a chance of knowing him, it's then up to them whether they accept it, or reject it. I hope they accept it and believe in our Lord Jesus and through him they may come to know God.

I could never think that there are people that God doesn't want back, he wants all of us, it's people who turn away from him because many love their lives in the flesh more than God. But I still have hope for all of them, and i hope that one day they will listen.

 

[beloved57]

When Jesus sent his disciples out into all the world to preach the gospel he sent them to preach to every creature, it's clear that the gospel is to be preached to everyone giving all the chance to know God and to be saved. Not just a select few who were chosen before they were born.

The only way that Gods people are are elect is because they have holy spirit in there hearts and he is the elect one. We are just vessels passing on the message that the spirit gives us to bring others back to God.

I don't see myself as above or more special than anyone else. The only thing that is special is the manifestation of Christ, through the spirit in the heart of his people.

Once we start to see ourselves as saved and looking down others as never having a chance of knowing God because we are chosen and the only ones going to heaven, and they that aren't saved have been predestined to hell. Then we start going down a slippery slope like the Pharisees did when they thought that they were above others and looked down on others. Pride in a big no no with God.

A while after I started truly knowing God, I was out in my town shopping, and I looked around and it was packed with people. And an overwhelming feeling came over and through me, I can't explain it, it was sorrow and love at the same time, sorrow because I knew that many of these people didn't know God, and love because I wanted them all to know him like i did. And as i stood there and looked around I realised that God wants all these people back, whoever they are he wants them, I knew then in my heart that God loves everyone, and he wants all to hear the gospel so that they have a chance of knowing him, it's then up to them whether they accept it, or reject it. I hope they accept it and believe in our Lord Jesus and through him they may come to know God.

I could never think that there are people that God doesn't want back, he wants all of us, it's people who turn away from him because many love their lives in the flesh more than God. But I still have hope for all of them, and i hope that one day they will listen.

Where is the scripture that says world means all humanity ?

 

[theophilus]

Figure it out for yourself.

This is my question to you.

Please answer.

Unless you cannot.

 

[theophilus]

1. What is Arminianism?
2. How does that passage refuse Arminianism?
3. Why is Arminianism relevant? The subject was Calvinism.

1. The doctrinal teachings of Jacobus Arminius or his followers, especially the doctrine that Christ died for all people and not only for the elect.

2. Jesus died for "many" not "all."

3. Robert Pate is an Arminian and that is what he defends on these boards. I was responding to his post #2989 in this thread.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This is my question to you.

Please answer.

Unless you cannot.

:chuckle:

 

[theophilus]

Gotcha.

You don't know.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Gotcha.

You don't know.

Conclude what you may. Will it make a difference in my life? Nah.

 

[Robert Pate]

1. The doctrinal teachings of Jacobus Arminius or his followers, especially the doctrine that Christ died for all people and not only for the elect.

2. Jesus died for "many" not "all."

3. Robert Pate is an Arminian and that is what he defends on these boards. I was responding to his post #2989 in this thread.

I am not a Protestant, I am not an Aminian, I do not belong to any church, nor am I a member of any denomination.

What I am is a blood bought member of Christ's church. I believe that salvation is by, Christ alone, faith alone and that all isms and religions are of the devil.

 

[marhig]

Where is the scripture that says world means all humanity ?

You're right, the word world in itself doesn't mean all humanity, it means different things, but if you put it in the context of go out into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature then he means everyone. Jesus wouldn't tell his apostles to preach the gospel to every creature/all creation if he didn't have hope for everyone, .But he knows that not everyone will accept it, although they all have a chance of knowing and a choice to make.

What do you think he means by that verse?

 

[Robert Pate]

You're right, the word world in itself doesn't mean all humanity, it means different things, but if you put it in the context of go out into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature then he means everyone. Jesus wouldn't tell his apostles to preach the gospel to every creature/all creation if he didn't have hope for everyone, but he knows that not everyone will accept it.

What do you think he means by that verse?

He isn't going to answer you because you asked him a question that he cannot answer without jeopardizing his religion.

Just like Hebrews 2:9. He has no answer for that either.

 

[beloved57]

marhig

You're right, the word world in itself doesn't mean all humanity

My point exactly, and so I rest my case !

 

[beloved57]

I am not a Protestant, I am not an Aminian, I do not belong to any church, nor am I a member of any denomination.

What I am is a blood bought member of Christ's church. I believe that salvation is by, Christ alone, faith alone and that all isms and religions are of the devil.

You are an arminian, you follow the teachings of jacob arminius, you dont have to go to a church to do that. You can do that right from your own home !

I believe that salvation is by, Christ alone,

No you dont ! How so when you teach that sinners Christ died for still wind up in Hell , lost ! Obviously you dont believe Christ death alone saved them He died for !

 

[beloved57]

He isn't going to answer you because you asked him a question that he cannot answer without jeopardizing his religion.

Just like Hebrews 2:9. He has no answer for that either.

Christ tasted death for every man in Christ ! And every man He tasted death for has been sanctified, and perfected for ever by His death Heb 10:10,14 which you deny !

 

[marhig]

marhig


My point exactly, and so I rest my case !

You still didn't answer my question, what does Jesus mean when he said to preach the gospel to all creation/every creature?

 

[TulipBee]

You still didn't answer my question, what does Jesus mean when he said to preach the gospel to all creation/every creature?

You didn't have the answer to his.

 

[beloved57]

You still didn't answer my question, what does Jesus mean when he said to preach the gospel to all creation/every creature?

It doesnt need to be answered. Does that scripture say, where Jesus commanded that, that the world means all humanity ? Yes or No ?

 

[Brother Ducky]

Must be that only the elect were engulfed in famine!

Must be that Jesus could only see a few scattered houses of the view from the mountain!

Caesar must have ordered a registration of only every fifth person in his domain!

Wow, it's amazing at how stupid some of these Calvinist defenses can get. The word "world" is inclusive within all possible reach. It's not "Where's Waldo." AMR would be smarter than this if this were about any other subject other than religion.

Not that AMR needs any help from me, but he refute Pate's oft repeated claim that "world" has but one meaning. If one wishes to argue that in any specific case that it does mean "all humanity" go for it. Make a cogent argument, not just state something as fact when it is certainly not obvious to all.

 

[Rosenritter]

Again, not one scripture says world means all humanity. Those scriptures have nothing to do with Salvation, who Christ died for. Thats the context of my statement.

Moving goalposts. You said that "world" cannot mean "all men." Now when it is proved that "world" means "all men" beyond any shadow of arguing in other instances, you expect us to believe that the word is being used in a sense that means "only a few select scattered" in other places?

No matter what the Bible would say in relation to salvation being offered to all, that Christ died for "all men" or Christ died for "the world" you would twist it and demand that Calvinism be the measure to judge the words of the Bible, not that the other way around.

Romans 5:18 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
(10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Titus 2:11 KJV
(11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


2 Peter 3:9 KJV(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



I have no idea how you can be so hard headed and so devoid of heart and head understanding. God loved the world, it says. And then from that world there is a subset, "whosoever believeth in him." If "world" and "whosover believeth in him" were the same it would say that "that the world should not perish but have everlasting life."

 

[Rosenritter]

I don't think that Jesus calling God his God, and the disciples calling God the God and father of Jesus an analogy, or Jesus saying why do you call me good, there's none good but God, or Jesus saying eternal life is to know you the only true God, none are analogies they are clear statements.

Regarding Revelation, look at Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it*by his angel unto his servant John

It's clear that God gave the revelation to Jesus, and Jesus signified it through his angel who gave it to John. Right through revelation you would think that it is Jesus or God talking but it's the angel, yet the angel isn't God, but he is speaking and giving John only what has been given him to speak. Jesus got the revelation from God, and he spoke it through his angel to John.

Jesus says in John 5:19 that he does what the father does, and the angel does what Jesus does and this is how they are one. And when we obey God and live by his word, we become one with them too. John passed on the exact words that the angel told him to write, even saying that no words are to be added or taken away. God wants no flesh added to his word, when we are at one with him and Christ then we will speak what is given to us there then, fresh bread from heaven taken from the rivers of living water straight to the heart, ready to feed those who need it.

John 5:19

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am*he, and*that*I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things

Jesus only speaks what he is given, and he is under subjection to God, and God has exalted him to the highest in heaven at his right hand and the only way to God is through Christ Jesus.

But it clearly says at the beginning of the book of Revelation that God gave Jesus the revelation, so God is the God of Jesus also.

1. You failed to address the clear positive statements. Substituting your own reasoning that "the God of Jesus was in heaven" warrants a different conclusion is just that, substituting your own reasoning. Your reasoning is obviously mistaken.

2. Your bias is coloring your ability to interpret other passages fairly. When Jesus said "Why do you call me good? There is one that is good, that is, God" he didn't say that he was not good. He didn't say that he was not rightly God... That's something you read into the passage because of your bias. Read it again. If anything, he created the implication of what it would mean if he were truly good.

How can you say that Jesus does not qualify as good?

John 1:29 KJV
(29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 4:15 KJV
(15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


God chose to relate to us on a face-to-face level, among us, as one of of us. As such certain references become necessary so we can simply relate. When he speaks to us in Revelation he comes clean out and uses the names and titles of God, he says he shall be our God. You haven't answered this, you haven't addressed this, you have only attempted to dismiss this.

This is aside from numerous other places besides, I pick Revelation because it is so obvious, because it is a book called "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" where Jesus Christ is revealed.