Does Calvinism limit God?

[1Way]

This totaly cracked me up, a most excellent post! From Knight this thread post 16 responding to Jobeth.

:first:

Jobeth said

Freewill is a human myth based on a Satanic lie.

Knight said
ROTFL.....
JoBeth.... don't you realize what you are saying?

You claim God controls every aspect of every created being.

Therefore IF freewill is a Satanic lie THEN freewill is a Satanic lie created and directed by God!

Right you are Knight, and if God established such a thing, it must be a good thing, so why is Jobeth attacking what God has done, why not say that murder and rape and suicide and abortion are all as much a part of God's will as prayer and loving kindness and grace and justice. She should never attribute such godly things to Satan or any other objectionable thing, she should just say that everything including all vial wicked evil is simply more evidence of God at work! ugh, What a complete contradiction to godliness and eternal truth. Jobeth is a living contradiction, by her personal and moral actions, she is like any other Christian, I personally met her while passing thru her local, she is a very friendly and likeable person, but when she gets to explaining her faith, it's about as rotten and contradictory as it gets. I care for her, but my caring is not hypocritical to that which is evil, thus she is my friend and foe, I oppose her because of a (genuine) good godly care for God and His ways, which by the way, for Jobeth's account, are not evil and sinful.

:thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Still waiting......

Still waiting......

Man... if anyone ever wants to silence "smaller" simply ask him these questions....

At creation.....

Did God create love?
Did God create righteousness?
Did God create Himself?

 

[godrulz]

Do I understand correctly that a believer with free will can decide to hate God and be in the same state as a reprobate unbeliever and still be saved because he was sealed at some point in his life?

This is the antithesis of Pauline thought and shows a gross lack of understanding of the nature of salvation as a love relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained (universal truth for all dispensations).

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Man's power to WILL does not translate necessarily into the power to DO. Man may WILL something altogether different from the purpose God has in the actions they will take as they attempt to work their will. In every instance, it will be God's purpose that is fulfilled. It very often happens that the actions of men produce results of which they had no intention; maybe not even expected.
An example is the American space program. Men have been trying to find the key to origins in the heavens--unsuccessfully; but many advancements of science have resulted from the space program which men did not anticipate.

 

[Mr Potato Head]

"Do not merely listen to the words and so deceive yourselves, DO what it says"... seems to me like man can do. Oh, maybe you mean that God determines all our steps, good or bad. In fact, today's the anniversery of Roe v. Wade, which is, ironically enough, one of God's most influential works in this country in the last half century. I mean, all because of him (not man, man cannot do, obviously) millions of babies have been killed in the last 31 years. I mean, that's impressive. Think of all the contributions God could have made them give to social security! But no, he saw it fit to slaughter millions. But everything that happens is for good. Even when my friends went to protest God's actions today, they were all working together with the liberals/infanticists for the greater glory of the Almighty. Praise Jesus!

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Mr. Potato Head--Trying to blame God for the evil men do? One of God's most common judgements against those who turn against Him is to give them up to the evil of their own nature. Did you hear that?
The evil of their "own" nature.
In common grace, He often restrains that evil nature; but when His longsuffering passes, He releases that restraint and they plummet into evil as a consequence of their "own" nature. As a result, their "own" nature ALSO brings judgement upon them; and the evil they do is often a form of judgement upon their victims. If a death results, that is no basis upon which to cast accusations against God because all men are condemned to death as a consequence of sin. Death is death no matter what the means, and God has the right to take transgressors off the earth by any means He pleases at whatever stage of their life He pleases. Even when His purpose in someome's death is fulfilled by an evil person, He still reserves the
right to execute judgement against the guilty person who took the life out of evil intent and evil purpose.

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Sealeaf

You can't surrender what you don't actually have.

You are correct. And I apologize. The confusion is entirely my fault because I wasn't as precise as I ought to have been.

I said those who get to heaven will have first "surrendered their will to God" when I should have said they have "surrendered the notion that they have a freewill".

Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by 1Way

Jobeth - My friend and foe, welcome back to TOL, I hope you are doing well. How are you doing physically?

I'm doing well now. Thank you for inquiring about me. Did I tell you that it turned out I had a tumor in my small intestine? I had surgery a year ago to remove it. Even the surgeon was surprised.
How's your stomach problems going?

But free will is a good thing, right, God has a free will, doesn't He?

Nothing is impossible for God. We say that God necessarily exists because there is no world (possible or impossible) where God is "excluded". In the set of "all worlds", there are only some of them that are "possible" to exist.
For instance, the "non-existent" world - represented like the "empty set" { } - is not possible to exist. "Not existing" is ontologically true for the "non-existent" world, { }. And yet, God "exists" as Truth, even for the empty set, because it is "true" that in the "non-existeny" world, nothing exists.

This is why I am working on a book to explain all this. (Remember I drew you a picture showing the 4 kinds of worldviews, two of which are a circle within a circle?) People are so confused about about "possible worlds" and "singularities" and "worldviews" and such. But they haven't really considered what they are saying. They just "imagine" that they "know" what they are talking about. I hope my book will help them, especially since I will include lots of pictures for the concepts that are hard to follow.

Good for you, you realize that God is powerful enough to be the God of the bible.

Yes, Dwayne. You are not more powerful than God. And I wish you would quit insinuating that you could whip His butt if you wanted to. Because you cannot. Even Satan, who is also more powerful than you, doesn't make such a ridiculous claim.

But, I thought you believe that everyone is controlled by God's will. So if you right that everyone and everything is controlled by God's will, then you are wrong to say there will be a world for those outside of God's control. Or said the other way, if your right that there will be a world where God is not in control of people in hell, then you are wrong that everyone and everything is controlled by God.

I am speaking of two different "worlds". One world is this one where God controls everything. The other is the "World to Come", which does not yet exist and is actually two separated worlds. In the World to Come, God will have One World (aka the new heaven and new earth) where God is "with" His people, and the other world (aka Outer darkness) where hell, death, and the grave are cast far, far "away" from God's care and control.

Which is it Jobeth, God is in control of everything, or not?

God DOES control everything. But in the World to Come, He will lord over only those who are "with" him. (i.e. the God-possessed) The others are cast away and He remembers them no more.

Oh, so some will not be under God's control, but I thought you believe that everything is under God's control. Please make up your mind.

Yes, God controls everything. He is Lord over ALL, whether they acknowledge Him or not. Even those who are "cast into outer darkness" do not go there of their own free will. Rather they are cast there against their will and without their consent.

They don't want to give up their whatttttttt!!!!!!????? You say that they have NOOOOOOOOOO free will, only God has free will, not man. What are you saying? Man does or does not have free will? Make up your mind.

I have made up my mind that God controls everything. You must reason for yourself whether God is Lord or not.
If God is Lord, then you serve Him alone, (contrary to what you were taught) For how can you disobey an omnicausal God?

Actually, all things serve Him. The world was made by Him AND for Him. Oh, and you thought He made the world to serve us and our purposes and schedules? God made all things for Himself. (Prov 16:4)

I thought that God controlled everything? It's not up to us to surrender anything, we can do nothing, only God does everything. Please make up your mind, do we control some things, or does God control everything? Which is it?

God controls everything whether you believe it or not. It is only reasonable that if God controls everything, you cannot logically cling to the notion of free will. So if you claim to have a freewill, then you simply don't know God.

1 John 2:4 (KJV)
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By letting the truth guide your faith. God says that after we become saved, we are a new creation, His spirit starts living within us working sanctifcation in our life, such that He is constantly working to conform us into Christlikeness.

And what did Christ say?
John 5:19 (ESV)
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

So if Christ says "I do nothing of my own will and agency", then can't we say the same?

Even the words, surrendering your will to God, establish that it is still your will, and once God has started His good work within us, there is no mention in scripture that this means we have no will of our own anymore, it's that our will is ever being conformed to His.

1 John 2:5 (ESV)
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:

But, again, according to your view, such a thing as submitting our will to God is impossible, there is only one will that exists, and that is God's will and control. So if God wills that someone becomes saved, it is not because that person did anything at all, let alone submit their will to God, you are suggesting that it was God and His doing every step of the way, so you have no business teaching that some people do anything, least of all submit their own will to God.

Surrendering your will is not a work we do of our own agency. Rather, it is more like the first breathe a baby takes when entering the world. It is done "automatically" at birth.

First God reveals himself as He truly is - the Omnicausal One God. Immediately, we perceive the truth and our notions of freewill desert us. I use the term "surrender" because that is how I was taught. It's the surrender of ectasy. We surrender TO overwhelming love.

Back in rare form and as contradictory and self refuting as normal, good to have you back Jobeth, you make God's classical omniscience look as bad as ever!

Here, let me ask you a question. Can God control everything and also at the same time and in the same relationship not control some things? Yes or no?

Of course not. If God is actually LORD OF ALL, like He claims, then you cannot at the same time be LORD OF YOURSELF, unless you are DELUDED.
2 Thes. 2:11 (KJV)
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst
In every instance, it will be God's purpose that is fulfilled. It very often happens that the actions of men produce results of which they had no intention; maybe not even expected.

I agree!

What they call "evil", God meant for good.

There is no such thing as "unnecessary evil".

 

[Mr Potato Head]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst Mr. Potato Head--Trying to blame God for the evil men do? One of God's most common judgements against those who turn against Him is to give them up to the evil of their own nature. Did you hear that?
The evil of their "own" nature.
In common grace, He often restrains that evil nature; but when His longsuffering passes, He releases that restraint and they plummet into evil as a consequence of their "own" nature. As a result, their "own" nature ALSO brings judgement upon them; and the evil they do is often a form of judgement upon their victims. If a death results, that is no basis upon which to cast accusations against God because all men are condemned to death as a consequence of sin.

:thumb: Agreed!

Death is death no matter what the means, and God has the right to take transgressors off the earth by any means He pleases at whatever stage of their life He pleases. Even when His purpose in someome's death is fulfilled by an evil person, He still reserves the
right to execute judgement against the guilty person who took the life out of evil intent and evil purpose.

God certainly has the right to destroy little babies. He did create them. I'm not doubting that. But can you see Jesus saying "let the little children come to me and while here take some to my left to the abortionist and others to the right to the child molester"?

It is not at all consistent with God's character, I'm not talking about what he can and cannot do.

 

[1Way]

Jobeth - You said

I'm doing well now. Thank you for inquiring about me. Did I tell you that it turned out I had a tumor in my small intestine? I had surgery a year ago to remove it. Even the surgeon was surprised.
How's your stomach problems going?

No, at least I don't think so, wow, that is great news! Any problems since? My stomach issues are not much better, but I'm about to make a lifestyle change such that hopefully the stress in my life will start to lower somewhat. Actually, I just had one of the most stressful things happen to me in years and years, ,,, I wrecked my truck I was driving for the company! I'm alright except for a highly damage ego and fractured self esteem, but I'm trying to look at it as positively as possible, although the level of humility and humiliation I am going through is exceeding, sometimes a dose of humility is a very good thing, even if it's forced upon you. I just wasn't being as careful as I should have been, and I wrecked the entire truck and trailer, it was a mess. I still have my job, and my back (and entire body) is sore after participating in the clean up effort which entailed a day and a half in fridged freezing weather with wind chills and an already agravated sore back which occasionally bothers me. And to top it all off, this is my last week working for them full time, I am going part time so that I would have more time to take care of home issues, which represent a huge backlog. ,,, but, thanks for asking.

Don't have time for more right now, just had to say that it's good to hear that evidently you are doing better! Another thing to be thankful to God about. Catch you later.

 

[1Way]

Opps, sorry Jobeth, I do remember you saying something about it might be cancer... That was the last I remember, so how have you been since? Any signs of re-occuring cancer or other health problems?

BTW, Jobeth, the problem is not about imaginary and unbiblical "necessary" vrs "unnecessary" evil/sin, the problem is that evil is never good and godly. NEVER! Remember, sin (evil/unrighteousness/ungodliness) is that which goes against God and His righteousness? That being the case, all sin and evil refutes the notion that God is the only free will, because all sin and evil and unrighteousness and ungodliness comes from somewhere else other than our God.

Woe to (folks like) you who switch good and evil, light and dark, sweet for bitter, thus "where is the God of Justice".



Jobeth, do you believe in absolute right and wrong?

Is God's justice arbitrary or absolute?

Is God the father of all evil?

Are you remotely awake yet?

 

[Rolf Ernst]

POTATO HEAD--Your post #71 shows that you stubbornly cling to the blasphemous idea that God's motivation in evils MUST BE AS WICKED AS THOSE WHO EXECUTE THOSE DEEDS.
According to you, God's motivation could not have been from a holy and just purpose when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery as Joseph himself said years later--"You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." You want Him to be as blameworthy as Joseph's brothers. According to YOU, He could NOT have meant it for good.
According to YOU, when a baby dies in an abortion mill God can't clear Himself of guilt on the justice of His sentence of death pronounced against sin. You defy God's RIGHT to take action on the basis of His justice because you prefer to charge HIM with the wickedness of the human (??) who took that life not as a just penalty against sin, but out of self-interest and irresponsibility.
According to YOU, when a nation tramples under foot the Son of God, considers His blood to be unholy, and does despite to the Spirit of grace God has no right to execute judgement against them by giving them over to the evil that is in their OWN nature.
NEWS FOR YOU MR. POTATO HEAD--God, in wrath against an evil people who have scoffed against Him, has the RIGHT to take vengeance and execute judgement by removing from them the help of His common grace which earlier restrained the EVIL of their own nature. And when they do the evils which He had earlier protected them from, MR POTATO HEAD, it is by His JUSTICE that the EVIL of their OWN nature then becomes the instrument of His holy wrath AGAINST them--just as He is now executing judgement against wicked people in this country by giving them up to the EVIL of SLAYING THEIR OWN CHILDREN.
But it is not likely that YOU WANT DELIVERANCE FROM THAT PARTICULAR FORM OF EVIL.
Psalm 81:11,12 "But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would have none of me, so I GAVE THEM UP TO THEIR OWN HEART'S LUST AND THEY WALKED IN THEIR OWN COUNSELS."
That is God's RIGHT, but have YOU cried out to Him to deliver YOU from the EVIL OF YOUR OWN WAY?
"The Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword; piercing to the dividing asunder of joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart."

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

POTATO HEAD--Your post #71 shows that you stubbornly cling to the blasphemous idea that God's motivation in evils MUST BE AS WICKED AS THOSE WHO EXECUTE THOSE DEEDS.
According to you, God's motivation could not have been from a holy and just purpose when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery as Joseph himself said years later--"You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." You want Him to be as blameworthy as Joseph's brothers. According to YOU, He could NOT have meant it for good.

Why do you limit God? Why do you make Him out to be less powerful than He truly is? You, along with countless others think God pre-arranged for all of this to happen to Joseph. You think He wanted evil to take place before the good. Was He not powerful enough to have good come about without bringing about evil? The God of the bible that I see is one who can still cause Joseph's brother's to bow to him regardless of Joseph, by his complete freewill, opening his big mouth about it.

According to YOU, when a baby dies in an abortion mill God can't clear Himself of guilt on the justice of His sentence of death pronounced against sin. You defy God's RIGHT to take action on the basis of His justice because you prefer to charge HIM with the wickedness of the human (??) who took that life not as a just penalty against sin, but out of self-interest and irresponsibility.

This is sick and disgusting! It's bad enough to say that babies deserve to have their limbs torn apart, their brains sucked out of their heads and to be slaughtered like animals but to say that God is behind all of this, cheering the abortionists on, pleased all the way, "Yeah, cut up that child! This is exactly what I want!" is sick beyond words. I don't appreciate you attributing this to my God. If somebody said false things about my Earthly father, you better know I'm going out of my way to set the record straight. So when somebody wrongly accuses my heavenly father of this most vile and wicked evil of man, it infuriates me BIG TIME!!

 

[1Way]

• Isa 5:20 - Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
  
  Am 5:15 - Hate evil, love good; Establish justice in the gate. It may be that the Lord God of hosts Will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.
  
  Mal 2:17 - You have wearied the Lord with your words; Yet you say, "In what way have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil Is good in the sight of the Lord, And He delights in them," Or, "Where is the God of justice?"

Jobeth and Rolf Ernst don't even demonstrate a working knowledge of one of the most basic and immature teachings from the bible, that God is good and wants good things to happen, and evil and sin is bad and God always opposes such things. I think most learned that at or before elementary school, but those two must have had a drastic educational shift, from righteous to evil. I love :cloud9: righteousness :jump: and I hate evil , and although I am not nearly perfect at living that out :nono: , it is a tremendous joy to understand and experience non-hypocritical love which naturally abhors evil. Those two are plainly condemned by God's word for attributing evil to God, which is evil for good, and dishonoring God instead of honoring Him and His righteous character which abhors evil, not DOES evil.

Do you know what mm's are? Moral Morons. :dunce: duh, what is evil, what is good, God's will is for both, duh, right? duh, yep, God does evil and good both and His good nature somehow makes the evil that God does, into "good godly ungodliness" and of course there the ever popular "righteous unrighteousness" and the "down home down right divine evil, sin and iniquity", and last but not least, don't forget about dear old "godly wickedness" and "upright and morally good immorality". :radar: :kookoo:

 

[Mr Potato Head]

Rolf Ernst said:
According to YOU, when a nation tramples under foot the Son of God, considers His blood to be unholy, and does despite to the Spirit of grace God has no right to execute judgement against them by giving them over to the evil that is in their OWN nature.

And Mr Potato Head said before:
God certainly has the right to destroy little babies. He did create them. I'm not doubting that. But can you see Jesus saying "let the little children come to me and while here take some to my left to the abortionist and others to the right to the child molester"?

So whom do I believe about what Mr Potato Head believes?

And whom do I believe about what God wants?

Originally said by Jesus
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (John 3:20)

God does not do evil, and bringing about evil would be doing evil. The Bible does not say God creates evil (except how some translations translate what he is referring to as his just judgment on sinners... see Isaiah 45:7). God is completely opposed to evil. God saw his creation and it was very good. Then evil came into it not from God and it fell. God hates evil. It grieves him. Claiming otherwise is to contradict the Living God.

 

[jobeth]

Mr Potato Head

Regarding your post #71 of this thread:

I don't know who you were quoting but it was not me.

Can you please edit your post to credit those quotes to the correct person?

 

[Tye Porter]

Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
Does Calvinism limit God?

No.
Open Theism does.
Putting man's will over God's limits God.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

You too, Poly? You ALSO charge God with evil because of the evil MEN do?? Can't see off the end of your nose far enough to realize that ""The wages of sin is death" and God has the RIGHT to require that price of anyone at any stage of their life even if it be by the hands of wicked HUMANS WHO ARE THE ONES WHO KILL NOT AS A FORM OF JUSTICE, BUT SIMPLY OUT OF SELF-INTEREST AND IRRESPONSIBILITY?
I guess you are one of the Godhaters who despises the FACT that our God is "a consuming fire."
Hear the Scripture, you wicked generation-- "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay."
I guess you must be horrified that He at one time wiped the earth clean of all humanity except for the eight in the ark. How many infants MR. POLY, do you think died at THAT TIME??????????GIVE ME AN ANSWER--HOW MANY????????????
You unbelieving Arminians have sat before sugar- tongued, ear-ticking preachers for so long that you can feel nothing at the thought of God's just wrath. You run around with syrupy sweet bumper stickers on the back of your car that say, SMIILLLEEE, God luvs YOU!
And you would say that without shame to those whom He hates---
OOOooohh! FORGIVE ME!!! I forgot that you people have torn Psalm 11:5 and 5:11 out of your sticky sweet Bibles.
The contempt that modern Americans have for God is largely due to the fact that you Arminians have for decades REFUSED to declare the whiole counsel of God to blasphemers who believe on the basis of YOUR testimony that God is without any measure of judgement against the wicked.
WAKE UP. IT IS CHRIST WHO WILL TREAD THE "WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD."
Won't those unbelievers who heard about God from YOUR lips be surprised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jobeth]

Originally posted by 1Way

Jobeth - No, at least I don't think so, wow, that is great news!

Yes, very great news. God is soooo good.

Any problems since?

Yes, I still have a few problems, but not anything like they were before. I got much sicker after I last saw you. That tumor, they tell me, had grown completely through the wall of the bowel. No wonder I was so sick and in pain! They resected it. I'm just amazed they can do those things and have everything work good as new. We are truly fearfully and wonderfully made by God.

My stomach issues are not much better, but I'm about to make a lifestyle change such that hopefully the stress in my life will start to lower somewhat. Actually, I just had one of the most stressful things happen to me in years and years, ,,, I wrecked my truck I was driving for the company! I'm alright except for a highly damage ego and fractured self esteem, but I'm trying to look at it as positively as possible, although the level of humility and humiliation I am going through is exceeding, sometimes a dose of humility is a very good thing, even if it's forced upon you.

I'm so sorry this happened. It sounds like it could have been much worse. Thank God for His grace. You could have been killed! But just as you said, God will surely bring good out of a seemingly awful occurrence.

I just wasn't being as careful as I should have been, and I wrecked the entire truck and trailer, it was a mess.

I can imagine it was a huge mess! What were you thinking?

I still have my job, and my back (and entire body) is sore after participating in the clean up effort which entailed a day and a half in fridged freezing weather with wind chills and an already agravated sore back which occasionally bothers me. And to top it all off, this is my last week working for them full time, I am going part time so that I would have more time to take care of home issues, which represent a huge backlog. ,,, but, thanks for asking.

I just tried to call you. Do you still have the same number?

Don't have time for more right now, just had to say that it's good to hear that evidently you are doing better! Another thing to be thankful to God about. Catch you later.

You are so sweet. That's why I put up with you. But I won't put up with your being cynical and bitter. I am very sorry you are overworked and in pain and under pressure from all sides. But I mean it, Dwayne. You know better than to take your anger and frustration out on other people. All God's children have problems. And we all often make mistakes in what we say.
1 Peter 3:4 (KJV)
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Imitate me.