Does Calvinism limit God?

[Poly]

I touched on this on another thread but I want to get other views on this. Does Calvinism limit God? Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event? If your answer is no then you limit God. If your answer is yes then you have to either deny predestination or believe He chose this way though He didn't have to. So why would a loving God choose to pre-arrange a woman being raped, a person being murdered, etc.? If you say it is to bring about His glory, is He not powerful enough to bring it about without this having to happen? I say He is. I say that since He truly is the living and loving God, if there be any other way to bring about His glory without having to do that which is against His nature then of course He would go this route. I believe He is so powerful, infact, that His glory will be established despite the evil of man. He's so powerful, He could give man his very own freewill yet man's own wickedness will never take away from God's power, glory and sovereignty.

 

[servent101]

Poly

I touched on this on another thread but I want to get other views on this. Does Calvinism limit God?

I have anoter view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined is going to come about - the end of the age - the enialation etc.- and if you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established. I believe the ciriculum stays the same for us - reap what you sow, and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe ther eis a literal hell. But for predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by servent101

Poly



I have anoter view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined is going to come about - the end of the age - the enialation etc.- and if you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established. I believe the ciriculum stays the same for us - reap what you sow, and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe ther eis a literal hell. But for predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Interesting view....

Did you invent this view yourself?

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by servent101

Poly



I have anoter view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined is going to come about - the end of the age - the enialation etc.- and if you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established. I believe the ciriculum stays the same for us - reap what you sow, and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe ther eis a literal hell. But for predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Maybe you can get back with us when a few more of your braincells to start perkin' up.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Poly


Maybe you can get back with us when a few more of your braincells to start perkin' up.

:chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Lucky

Maybe you should hold off on reading that. At least wait til your brain cells start to perk up.

Are you agreeing with 101's post?

 

[Tye Porter]

Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.

Do you there may be another way to see this?
God granted man a freewill.
Is God not powerful enough to correct/control man's will, or does man have the ultimate power and control God with our own will?

Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?

Did Knight himself not use a Bible verse pointing out the God directs our steps?

So why would a loving God choose to pre-arrange a woman being raped, a person being murdered, etc.?

Does the Bible read that God causes evil?

He's so powerful, He could give man his very own freewill yet man's own wickedness will never take away from God's power, glory and sovereignty.

Is He powerful enough that in spite of man's freewill, He can still direct our footsteps as He says He does?

 

[jobeth]

Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.

I believe that God is powerful enough to give man a freewill. But He's not that stupid.

Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?

Yes, He could. And that is just the kind of world that will exist for those who are separated from God's control. Which would seem to be good for them, since that's what they wanted. But our Lord warned us that they won't actually be happy being separated from God's control. What a dilemma. On the one hand they want to be in Heaven rather than hell, but on the other hand they don't want to give up their free will to live in a world where only God's will is done.

Don't you know that everyone who will get into heaven will have first surrendered their will to God? And if you surrendered you will to God, then how can you claim to still have a will of your own?

 

[jobeth]

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Tye Porter
God granted man a freewill.
Is God not powerful enough to correct/control man's will, or does man have the ultimate power and control God with our own will?

I think you misunderstand. Freewill means "freedom from God's control". So saying that man has a freewill that God controls is kind of an oxymoron.

Did Knight himself not use a Bible verse pointing out the God directs our steps?

Of course God directs our steps. He is Lord over all, whether anyone believes or acknowledges that fact or not.

Does the Bible read that God causes evil?

As a matter of fact, it does.
Is 45:7; Amos 3:6; Hab 3:5; Lam 3:38; Prov 16:4 et al

Is He powerful enough that in spite of man's freewill, He can still direct our footsteps as He says He does?

Freewill is a human myth based on a Satanic lie.

 

[Behira]

All denominations limit G-d by their dogma.

 

[geralduk]

No.
It speaks of God as it is written.
and of man as it is written.

it limits man.
and there is the 'rub' for some people.

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Behira

All denominations limit G-d by their dogma.

Men 'limit' what God can DO by thier belief that a PART is the WHOLE.

AND EVEN A "SOUND DOCTRIN" is not ALL DOCTRIN.

When Peter had come to the revalation of who Christ WAS.
Though he was RIGHT and he had come to a knowledge of the truth pertaining to WHO Christ was.
When the LORD seeking to BUILD on that foundation "went a little further"and began to FURTHER REVEAL what was NEXT in the progresive puproses of God.
Peter began to reject it and began to even disuade the LORD from it.
Because it did not FIT with HIS understanding OF THE TRUTH.
but taking the PART that he DID KNOW.made it out to be the WHOLE.

Thus we have CALVIN AND LUTHOR AND DISPENSATIONISST AND COVENENT THEOLOGY and all the other 'systems' (if they be FOUNDED ON THE TRUTH of course)
Our 'systems' have become our 'god' almost.
The LORD did not undermine or throw away the TRUTH of what PETER KNEW.But it was on THAT foundation that HE BEGAN to REVEAL MORE!
But we have so REDUCED the gospel to being BORNagain(for the sake of 'peace'?)That we have rejected WHAT COMES AFTER!
Perhaps for the same reason?
For the lord began to speak of the SUFFERING and the CROSS.
and where as we hear A LOT concerning that to 'CELEBRATE' about.
we do not hear much about the CROSS.

Are we not to "take up OUR CROSS daily and folow Him"?

The cross is a place of DEATH.
and SELF DENIAL.
AND seekign FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness.
and OBEDIENCE" even unto the death of the cross" IF NEED BE.

That is why perhaps men are HAPPY to DEBATE the cross but not to HANG ON IT.

We rejoice that christ died for us.
But perhaps are not so overjoyed in 'dying' for Him?

We are heading for VERY SERIOS days AHEAD.
AND THE STORM CLOUDS are already gathering.
the ONLY safe place is WITH Him.
NOT "AFAR off"

The question is will we HOLD TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD that we in truth "know" and seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness..." and set our faces as FLINTS to DO what we know and if we do we will find that, we too will have to suffer persecutions and trials.
Not in any measure as comparable to His.
But nevertheless suffer them we must.
"For they that live GODLY in Christ JESUS (listen) WILL suffer persecution"

The church does not 'live' by saving itself.
But by GIVING itself and laying down its life "fro My sake and the gospels"
and when we build walls for our OWN protection rather leave our life in Gods hands we STAGNATE.
Most debates on thses forums are done from BEHIND the high walls of the varios 'schools' of theology.
to which each defends as HE sees fit.
But the kingdom of God is likened unto a man who WENT OUT to SOW. and while we know that the enemey has his own sowers.
nevertheless the we should be doing more and WATCHING.
It was while MEN SLEPT that hsi enemy came and sowed tares!

So the ONLY thing that 'limits' God in a sense is mans UNBELIEF.
"For He could do NO WORK there for thier unbelief"
Notwithstanding that God'swill is DONE and NO man can stop it.
It just is not done in them.
Not to Gods 'hurt' but to thier own. But to them that believe not Gods will is done there also but according to that which pertains to them who do not believe.

But to them who DO BELIEVE .........."ALL things are possible" according to the will of God.

 

[servent101]

Poly – I will try to make my post a little more understandable –

I have another view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined for this current earth is not going to come about – example - the end of the age - the inhalation etc. If you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established after the inhalation. I believe the curriculum stays the same for us for eternity – those who are saved. The reap what you sow, still applies in the old earth - and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe there is some sort of predestination – yet in some sense it could be considered predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process, a lot like going through hell – and some souls were simply not meant to contemplate God conscious matters – there are other forms of life their souls can have that are more suiting to their nature – but nothing stays the same for an eternity.

If you could not understand my first post, I am sorry – I was rushed and the post was not finished properly – there is Scripture I could quote about the new earth and new heaven – I think it is Biblically sound.

I will toss this back to you

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

 

[Poly]

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Tye Porter


Is God not powerful enough to correct/control man's will...

Correct and control are 2 different things. There are ways that He can correct a situation, done out of our stupidity or bad choice, if He so desires, without having having to pre-program what our actions will be. If a father catches his son stealing, he can be a part of correcting that situation. He disciplines the child, makes the child give the money back and then some or whatever he thinks necessary in making this circumstance better.

... or does man have the ultimate power and control God with our own will?

Does man put God in a difficult situation where he bites His nails and worries Himself to death over what He's going to do since man did something that "never entered His mind" or something that God would rather him not do? No. That's just it. That's how powerful and how much God should be trusted. He is incredibly wise and knows man better than we know ourselves. I know what kind of actions my kids will take and reactions they will have in particular situations but I didn't have to program them in order to know it. How much more and on a greater level, does God know us?

Did Knight himself not use a Bible verse pointing out the God directs our steps?

It doesn't surprise me that He did since there are several. Again I use the example of parents. If a father raises and instructs his child in the way he should go, has he not directed his steps? Must all passages speaking of God doing this, mean that all of our actions were predestined?

Does the Bible read that God causes evil?

No

Is He powerful enough that in spite of man's freewill, He can still direct our footsteps as He says He does?

Yes, just as I described 2 quotes ago.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by jobeth

I think you misunderstand. Freewill means "freedom from God's control". So saying that man has a freewill that God controls is kind of an oxymoron.

JoBeth that is a false dilemma.

God chose to give us a will of our own yet He controls the limits of that will therefore your statement is has no logical foundation.

You continue...

Of course God directs our steps. He is Lord over all, whether anyone believes or acknowledges that fact or not.

I prefer to believe God instead of JoBeth. JoBeth says God directs man's steps whether man believes in Him or not, yet God says just the opposite...

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

Therefore God disagrees with JoBeth.

You continue....

Freewill is a human myth based on a Satanic lie.

ROTFL..... .

JoBeth.... don't you realize what you are saying?

You claim God controls every aspect of every created being.

Therefore IF freewill is a Satanic lie THEN freewill is a Satanic lie created and directed by God!

 

[smaller]

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are there EXCEPTIONS to ALL THINGS?

God might actually KNOW what He is doing eh?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smaller

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are there EXCEPTIONS to ALL THINGS?

God might actually KNOW what He is doing eh?

Of course there are exceptions!!!

Maybe Smaller can answer for us these simple questions....

At creation.....

Did God create love?
Did God create righteousness?
Did God create Himself?

 

[Rolf Ernst]

poly--You make two premises in your first post on this thread which are false. A false premise, if believed, will always lead to false conclusions.
As proof that your premises are false, let me see you reconcile them with Psalm 33:10,11 "The Lord brings the counsel of the heathen to nothing. He makes the devices of the people of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations." and "He frustrates the purposes of the crafty so that their hands cannot perform their plans."
You see, your mistake is that you think man has the power to do whatever he pleases and God has to like it, or lump it. MISTAKE! BIG MISTAKE! It is the other way around. Man (or satan)
can only do what God is pleased for them to accomplish.
OH, SURE! MAN HAS FREE WILL, ALRIGHT; but he has no power to DO what he wills to do unless God is pleased to allow it for His own reason.

"WHO IS HE WHO SAYS AND IT COMES TO PASS WHEN THE LORD HAS NOT COMMANDED IT?"

Don't get confused over that. Just ask Him for understanding.

 

[jobeth]

What, exactly, is man's freewill free from if not God's (or anyone else's) control?

I don't know what it means to say that man has a freewill that is controlled, (Tye?) or limited, (Knight?) or restrained, (Rolf?) by God. Doesn't that mean man's will is NOT free?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by jobeth

What, exactly, is man's freewill free from if not God's (or anyone else's) control?

I don't know what it means to say that man has a freewill that is controlled, (Tye?) or limited, (Knight?) or restrained, (Rolf?) by God. Doesn't that mean man's will is NOT free?

Good question.... yet simple answer.

God created us and delegated that we have our own wills. Yet these wills have logical limitations that are by God's design.

For instance... although we have the freewill and ability to choose and follow God we DO NOT have the freewill nor ability to save ourselves without God's help. Therefore we have freewill within the scope that God ordained.