Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

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Nathon Detroit

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Which brings me back to my earlier musing, what if creation was the first event for God? Essentially, there wouldn't have been time before that first event correct?
If that is true God isn't the eternal God from everlasting. Instead He would be a finite God who has only existed a finite amount of time into the past.
 

CabinetMaker

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Why do you think that? Just curious.
I think that it helps us figure out God's Gospel. We learn that things we do in the past, like mess around during high school, effects our future, like I didn't have the grades to get into med school. If we can connect that the choices we make now effects what we can do tomorrow, then it better helps us understand that what we choose to do with the Gospel will effect our eternity.

But I was thinking about something you said last night, about time being a part of God. I remembered we had a speaker in our church that was talking about the extra-dimensionality of God. How ever many dimensions we exist in, God exists in at least one more dimension. We exist in at least 4 dimensions, X, Y, X and t where t is time. That would mean that God exists in at least those dimensions so God exists in time. Since He is in more dimensions than we are, He is not limited by time in the same way that we are, though. But it seems entirely reasonable that time could be part of God's nature in the same way that space is.
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
No, love is not a created thing. We were created in God's image thus we have the ability to love.

God is Love. However we will recognized God only through His urgings, that is the urgings of love. We cannot know Him otherwise, only those who have loved know God.

And indeed those who have not love do not know God. Therefore from this revelation there are people who have not loved and therefore there are people who do not know God.

And indeed the urgings of love which arises and is sustained naturally and spontaneously within one's heart for those specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation, is the will of God for that person. One must simply let these urgings of love guide one into associations and relationships. Then God's will is done in His creation and one is under Grace of God.
 

Nathon Detroit

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I think that it helps us figure out God's Gospel. We learn that things we do in the past, like mess around during high school, effects our future, like I didn't have the grades to get into med school. If we can connect that the choices we make now effects what we can do tomorrow, then it better helps us understand that what we choose to do with the Gospel will effect our eternity.

But I was thinking about something you said last night, about time being a part of God. I remembered we had a speaker in our church that was talking about the extra-dimensionality of God. How ever many dimensions we exist in, God exists in at least one more dimension. We exist in at least 4 dimensions, X, Y, X and t where t is time. That would mean that God exists in at least those dimensions so God exists in time. Since He is in more dimensions than we are, He is not limited by time in the same way that we are, though. But it seems entirely reasonable that time could be part of God's nature in the same way that space is.
Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
 

hippiechyck

New member
I think that it helps us figure out God's Gospel. We learn that things we do in the past, like mess around during high school, effects our future, like I didn't have the grades to get into med school. If we can connect that the choices we make now effects what we can do tomorrow, then it better helps us understand that what we choose to do with the Gospel will effect our eternity.

But I was thinking about something you said last night, about time being a part of God. I remembered we had a speaker in our church that was talking about the extra-dimensionality of God. How ever many dimensions we exist in, God exists in at least one more dimension. We exist in at least 4 dimensions, X, Y, X and t where t is time. That would mean that God exists in at least those dimensions so God exists in time. Since He is in more dimensions than we are, He is not limited by time in the same way that we are, though. But it seems entirely reasonable that time could be part of God's nature in the same way that space is.

i agree with this

Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?

why is it that if i say "God transcends time" that is the question that comes up? is God not God? He certainly is not confined to the meager "time needs" that we have...He doesn't age, does He? He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever...

of course He is not still on the Cross, why does that mean He is outside of time? He said "it is finished" and that means it's done

maybe i'm simple minded, but i do NOT understand how one thing (time) has anything to do with God's God-ness
 

P8ntrDan

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If that is true God isn't the eternal God from everlasting. Instead He would be a finite God who has only existed a finite amount of time into the past.
So if time is described as the passing of events in sequential order, what was God's first event?
 

Nathon Detroit

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why is it that if i say "God transcends time" that is the question that comes up? is God not God? He certainly is not confined to the meager "time needs" that we have...
What are "time needs"? :idunno:

Time is nothing more than reality happening sequentially. One event follows another event and so on.

He doesn't age, does He? He is the SAME yesterday, today and forever...
God's character is the same yesterday, today, and forever but God Himself changes all the time. After all... He is the living God. God is living and therefore by definition He changes otherwise He would be "dead".

of course He is not still on the Cross, why does that mean He is outside of time? He said "it is finished" and that means it's done
I don't think God is outside of time. CabinetMaker thinks God is outside of time and you seem to agree with him. So I am not sure I understand your question.

maybe i'm simple minded, but i do NOT understand how one thing (time) has anything to do with God's God-ness
Do you believe God experiences one event after another event and so on? Or do you believe that God is in some sort of eternal "now" where all events for all of time are happening at once?
 

Nathon Detroit

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So if time is described as the passing of events in sequential order, what was God's first event?
He didn't have a first event. God is the uncaused cause. He is the creator God that has existed for all time.

Maybe you can take a stab at this....

Fill in the blanks time....
God has existed an eternity past. Which means He has existed an infinite amount of _______ into the past.
 

P8ntrDan

New member
He didn't have a first event. God is the uncaused cause. He is the creator God that has existed for all time.

Maybe you can take a stab at this....

Fill in the blanks time....
God has existed an eternity past. Which means He has existed an infinite amount of _______ into the past.
time....

But, doesn't time require the passing of events? Should nothing happen from one moment to the next (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) would time have passed? Can't we just say that before creation, God simply was?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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He didn't have a first event. God is the uncaused cause. He is the creator God that has existed for all time.

Maybe you can take a stab at this....

Fill in the blanks time....
God has existed an eternity past. Which means He has existed an infinite amount of time into the past.

But that is time from our perspective which I am not convinced is the same as time from Gods perspective.
 

CabinetMaker

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Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?
Hmm. I suppose that it might be that He is. That would makes His sacrifice on the cross an eternal sacrifice that covers all of our sins.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Do you believe God (from His perspective) is still hanging on the cross? Or is that part of God's past?

Relational to, not subject to. His incarnation is a conundrum all in itself on logical points. We agree on that. It has us very perplexed on many logical levels. God is amazing.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Summary

Summary

Let's see,

as I read the debate, there is a bit of doldrum and confusion so I'll attempt to hit some points discussed and those desperately needing to be punched.

JCWR Starts with the premise of proving temporality in God by introducing the A and B theories of time and elaborating on the A theory.

We have a promise we are looking forward to in seeing
'much support' for the A theory and will look forward to a healthy portion served up in ensuing posts.

Not much time was spent on the B-theory and it isn't good to start debates going without really laying out a solid premise of both what is being supported and what is being rejected. We are not starting off with a good run nor possibly even a good cantor.

AMR's address helps delineate what kind of A-theorist one can be and we find JCWR is sempiternalitist, which is in keeping with most OVer's position. That time is uncreated and God experiences it along with us.

AMR lifts an incredible challenge in that if any attribute of God in Traditional theology is proved wrong, then God as we know Him is erased. The challenge is alternately gauntletted before OV on the same premise. This then, would be a battle royale to end all battle royales.

The concession:
Yes, I believe that if you can make your case without appeal to these attributes, then you have made the case that open theism has incorrectly formulated its views of God.

OV Theists may want to chime in here. Not being OV, is JCWR correct?

Next, we wait for the supported material suggesting that the majority support an A-theory of time and have an interlude of scriptural considerations from JCWR that support the claim that God is temporal but at this point the assertions are not substantiated.

We then, have AMR, seeing the assertions for what they are, getting ready to topple the house of cards which is where we presently are at in the debate.

I'd have expected a bit more of an academic treatise from JCWR than mere assertions to begin with and am doubtful this clash will be substantive for the necessary considerations.
My present assessment
What is needed is:

1) a bit of history on the issue from science and philosophy
2) a bit of the historical dynamics that speak from both camps
3) a strongly supported/stated position with challenge for refutation
4) quotes quotes and more quotes from those on either position
5) scripture that helps us interpret correctly whether we view God as temporal or atemporal with commentary, language considerations, anthropomorphisms etc.

I hope this debate reaches its potential
 

Stripe

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Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight. :)

AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to God’s timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
 

Stripe

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Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight. :)

AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to God’s timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
Dang! Byte form is loooooong .. :eek:
 

Stripe

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AMR accuses Open Theism of building its theology atop the same Greek philosophies that it condemns.

AMR defends the philosophical ideas of God’s immutability, impassibility, and timelessness against charges of paganism because the people who lay the charges use different philosophical ideas that the pagans also used.

AMR claims that theologians using Greek ideas altered those ideas from what they meant before that.

AMR says there is no disputing that Augustine owed much to Platonic thinking and was converted to Christianity because of it. He thinks people who hold these facts up to scrutiny have not studied enough on the subject.

AMR shows that Aquinas knew a lot about Aristotle.

AMR recognises that lots of theologians have opposed classical theology.

AMR describes Greek ideas of what God might be like, unchanging, compassionless and apathetic.

AMR requires evidence that the influence of this kind of Greek thought is bad.

AMR requires that an alternative theology be based on something other than a human interpretation and philosophy.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Grant is going to re-write AMR's posts in byte form. Happy Christmas, Knight. :)

AMR thinks time came into existence at the beginning of creation because Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning".

AMR thinks God must be outside of time in order to be all powerful.

AMR regards interpretation with just cause as grounds for suspicion and prefers people to be honestly open as to how these texts are accepted by the majority.

AMR thinks the bible is written so that it can be understood and believes that it conveys the incomprehensible nature of God in the form of comprehansible descriptions.

AMR thinks that if God existed for an eternity in the past then not enough time would yet have passed in order that creation might have happened.

AMR thinks that Jesus said I Am because Jesus is continually in every moment of time at all times. Similarly he thinks that Jesus is hanging on the cross for the same reasons.

AMR thinks that the verses he used cannot have the preposition "before" because that would imply that there was a "before" before creation.

AMR accuses JCWR of understanding the text of Rev. 13:8 analogously!

AMR accuses JCWR of ignoring other Scriptures related to God’s timelessness. 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4. He thinks the literal meaning of these passages is that time is of no significance to God.

AMR uses Jude 25; Titus 1:2 and 2 Timothy 1:9 to say that if there was a "before all time" and if we all agree that God is without beginning, then God must have existed prior to time.

AMR claims that Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 show that in the past the future already existed for God.
:first: POTD
 
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