Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

[godrulz]

Time is not a created thing nor is it a limitation on God. You have a traditional view, but it is not truth.

 

[JCWR]

JCWR despises me, from what I can tell. I am surprised he is opposing AMR, another one who does not like me.

I must say that I am cheering for JCWR, because I think he is right on track.

The one issue for credibility, though, is that his view is actually the A-theory of time, the one Open Theists resonate with. He is defending the A-theory, but calling it the B-theory.

Could someone tell him to look into that before AMR thinks he lacks credibility?

Keep his content, but correct his view to A vs B theory (A is dynamic/temporal; B is static/timeless).

I posted very late and was tired. I made the corrections. Sorry everyone.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Why??

Maybe time is merely the byproduct of a living, rational creator God. In other words... there is simply no reason to assume that time was created... after all, a time before time is irrational. Time exists because a rational, living God exists.

It seems logical that if God is omnipotent, then time would have to be under God's control. If it wasn't, then God would not be all powerful, there would exist one thing beyond His ability to control.

And this may well be a meaningless side issue. We are limited by time. We live in the know with memories of yesterday and hopes for tomorrow. But we cannot go back to yesterday to change it nor even look into tomorrow to know what it holds. I may be guilty of emposing those imits on God. Still, it does not seem right that God would be limitied by time.

I do believe that God knows the future but has not settled the future. I have always thought that time is like a table. Men live on that table and move through their lives limited as I noted above. God lives above that table and He can see all of our lives spread out before Him so He knows where we have been, where we are and where we are going. Again, it is a far from perfect analogy, but it has always helped me understand how God can the future without perdetermining it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ok we maybe creating a side arguement here, but doesnt your line say that god either created by intention ( creation ) or created by proxy (byproduct), both suggest that God creates time.

No.

Time isn't a thing that needs to be created.

Time is merely the notion that reality is sequential i.e., one event follows another event and so on.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It seems logical that if God is omnipotent, then time would have to be under God's control. If it wasn't, then God would not be all powerful, there would exist one thing beyond His ability to control.

Let me ask you this....

Do you think God created love? Or is love just a part of God's character?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I do believe that God knows the future but has not settled the future. I have always thought that time is like a table. Men live on that table and move through their lives limited as I noted above. God lives above that table and He can see all of our lives spread out before Him so He knows where we have been, where we are and where we are going. Again, it is a far from perfect analogy, but it has always helped me understand how God can the future without perdetermining it.

If God can see the end of the table in advance and He knows what happens at the end of the table in every detail then the future is settled. Settled via God's ability to see the end of the table.

 

[CabinetMaker]

If God can see the end of the table in advance and He knows what happens at the end of the table in every detail then the future is settled. Settled via God's ability to see the end of the table.

Parts of the future are settled. God has described to us the end of the table in Revelations. God has told us what He will do and He will do it. But that does not mean, at least to me, that God had to determine each and every action of each and every thing to get to the end of the table.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Let me ask you this....

Do you think God created love? Or is love just a part of God's character?

Love is an integral part of God's nature. He expresses that love to His creation.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Parts of the future are settled. God has described to us the end of the table in Revelations. God has told us what He will do and He will do it. But that does not mean, at least to me, that God had to determine each and every action of each and every thing to get to the end of the table.

It's true that parts of the future are settled but that is because God has determined to bring certain events to pass.

Do you think that the only way for God to get a desired outcome is to have seen the end of the table? Or is He powerful enough to bring an event to pass?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Love is an integral part of God's nature. He expresses that love to His creation.

So..... what is your answer?

Did God create love or not?

 

[P8ntrDan]

It's true that parts of the future are settled but that is because God has determined to bring certain events to pass.

Do you think that the only way for God to get a desired outcome is to have seen the end of the table? Or is He powerful enough to bring an event to pass?

I think that time could be described as a creek flowing from it's source (creation) to it's end (the ocean of infinite bounds). Therefore, God would be able to be completely outside of time, such as a man standing beside the creek, watching it and knowing where it will go.

If a stick dropped in the creek at it's beginning was described as the way the actual events went from the beginning to the end, then the stick could float anywhere it needed to on the creek (allowing many different possible futures, but with the same destination), but God could also force that stick to go through certain places (events) by either moving it or changing the creek itself.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I think that time could be described as a creek flowing from it's source (creation) to it's end (the ocean of infinite bounds). Therefore, God would be able to be completely outside of time, such as a man standing beside the creek, watching it and knowing where it will go.

If a stick dropped in the creek at it's beginning was described as the way the actual events went from the beginning to the end, then the stick could float anywhere it needed to on the creek (allowing many different possible futures, but with the same destination), but God could also force that stick to go through certain places (events) by either moving it or changing the creek itself.

So what you are saying is....

Prior to creation God did NOT experience one event after another and so on. And if God wasn't experiencing reality sequentially prior to creation how could He get from there... to here?

Time requires a sequential reality. Rational existence requires a sequential reality.

God is real, rational, and Living. He experiences one event after another event and so on. There is no logical, or biblical reason to deduce that God isn't rational.

 

[P8ntrDan]

So what you are saying is....

Prior to creation God did NOT experience one event after another and so on. And if God wasn't experiencing reality sequentially prior to creation how could He get from there... to here?

Time requires a sequential reality. Rational existence requires a sequential reality.

God is real, rational, and Living. He experiences one event after another event and so on. There is no logical, or biblical reason to deduce that God isn't rational.

You're saying that based off of our rational existence that God would need sequential reality for his existance. Besides, it was just an analogy for time as we know it. The idea was that God sees the big picture and has the power to make what he needs to happen happen.

 

[Delmar]

... The idea was that God sees the big picture and has the power to make what he needs to happen happen.

I absolutely believe that is true! I also believe God experiences thing in the order that they really happen. God, being real, is not outside of reality!

 

[P8ntrDan]

I absolutely believe that is true! I also believe God experiences thing in the order that they really happen. God, being real, is not outside of reality!

Ok, so I may have expressed it poorly, but my first sentence in the previous post was trying to point out that we can't explain how God exists on our terms. He isn't outside of reality, but rather controls what is reality, making the impossible (such as healing a blind man or prophesying the future) possible.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ok, so I may have expressed it poorly, but my first sentence in the previous post was trying to point out that we can't explain how God exists on our terms. He isn't outside of reality, but rather controls what is reality, making the impossible (such as healing a blind man or prophesying the future) possible.

So why invent some unbiblical concept about God creating time? :idunno:

The Bible says no such thing.

I say.... stick with what is actually in God's word. :up:

 

[P8ntrDan]

So why invent some unbiblical concept about God creating time? :idunno:

The Bible says no such thing.

I say.... stick with what is actually in God's word. :up:

And neither did I.

I was saying that God created time as we know it. (which of course came about by creating a the physical reality in which we live in).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And neither did I.

I was saying that God created time as we know it. (which of course came about by creating a the physical reality in which we live in).

Again that simply isn't true.

Time is the idea that reality happens sequentially i.e., one event follows another event and so on. There is NO biblical evidence or necessary logical argument that suggests God needed to create that type of reality.

Maybe...
What you are thinking of is our ability to measure time which is of course effected by physics and therefore creation.

Let me ask you this....
Do you believe there was a time when God didn't experience one event after another event and so on?

 

[P8ntrDan]

Again that simply isn't true.

Time is the idea that reality happens sequentially i.e., one event follows another event and so on. There is NO biblical evidence or necessary logical argument that suggests God needed to create that type of reality.

Maybe...
What you are thinking of is our ability to measure time which is of course effected by physics and therefore creation.

Let me ask you this....
Do you believe there was a time when God didn't experience one event after another event and so on?

There is no way for us to know that. The Bible states that in the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. Therefore, the BIBLE states that the beginning of time (as far as we are concerned) started with creation. As to your question, I would assume that God experienced things as they happened, but for an omnipresent omnipotent God that would look different for him than it would for us. Before the beginning, there was a sense of 'time', or the passing of events/thoughts. Will that suffice?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

There is no way for us to know that. The Bible states that in the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. Therefore, the BIBLE states that the beginning of time (as far as we are concerned) started with creation.

It says no such thing!

Creation was the beginning of us and the physical universe.

Creation wasn't the beginning of....

God
Love
Power
Intelligence
Time

And any other inherent attribute of God. God is the living God, therefore as long as God has existed (eternally) there has been a sequence of events for Him, that's what makes Him a rational being.

As to your question, I would assume that God experienced things as they happened, but for an omnipresent omnipotent God that would look different for him than it would for us. Before the beginning, there was a sense of 'time', or the passing of events/thoughts. Will that suffice?

Think about what you are asserting....
If before creation there was no passing of events how did God get to creation??? How did that event come to pass if events didn't transpire? :idunno: