Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Of course people can vote for anyone they want but if we know the truth about the candidates then we must take that into consideration. John McCain wants to be president so he is trying to say the right things now to decieve gullible voters. Don't be a gullible pro-lifer and vote for McCain!
Your argument only works if God actually put his people under those leaders.
In some cases you may be able to adequately argue that He did. But not in all. In fact, not in most. The German people put themselves under Hitler by voting for him. The ones who voted for him did anyway. And the Israelites were put under Pharaoh by Pharaoh himself. Not by God. And on and on. And you failed to provide scriptural support for your claim about Nebuchadnezzar.
genuineoriginal
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Daniel 2 1And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him. . . . 20Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: 21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: . . . 37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. |
Jeremiah 29 1Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon; 2(After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem  3By the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan, and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, (whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent unto Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon) saying, 4Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon; 5Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them; 6Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished. 7And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace. |
YahuShuan
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It is immoral to vote for evil, whether Obama or McCain. If they don't follow the commands of Yah, the only votes they receive are immoral votes. And the people would be deceiving themselves. Yah is no respector of any person, if they are evil, they are evil, a vote for either is a vote against the will of Yah, and is a vote for evil. This country is being judged as we speak, and what all opine to do is written in the books.
Both McCain and Obama have evil in their hearts, and it is shown forth by their fruit. I personally think that if one goes to the polls to vote, they should take that ticket and write upon it "None to rule but those who obey the Elohim of the Bible". It is time for this Nation to repent or perish.
And in Yahuweh I trust. Pray for a leader to be raised who will follow the "Way of Life". There is a "Declaration of Repentance" circulating, to be issued to the next President of this land at "Inspiration Ministries". Here is the link... http://www.inspirationtoday.com/insptoday/declrept2.aspx
Check it out, the time is near when we will no longer have a chance to do anything more. "Choose you this day whom you will serve!"
Both McCain and Obama have evil in their hearts, and it is shown forth by their fruit. I personally think that if one goes to the polls to vote, they should take that ticket and write upon it "None to rule but those who obey the Elohim of the Bible". It is time for this Nation to repent or perish.
And in Yahuweh I trust. Pray for a leader to be raised who will follow the "Way of Life". There is a "Declaration of Repentance" circulating, to be issued to the next President of this land at "Inspiration Ministries". Here is the link... http://www.inspirationtoday.com/insptoday/declrept2.aspx
Check it out, the time is near when we will no longer have a chance to do anything more. "Choose you this day whom you will serve!"
YahuShuan
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Obvious enough to smack us right in the face. Seems it has the who worlds attention now, lol!
nicholsmom
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You clearly have not read our post.
The Graphite
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Well fiddle sticks, soon as we posted our new round, we discovered a tiny snippet of our opponents' quoted text got deleted, between the first and second paragraphs.
It is nothing more than a quote from our opponents, Team NW, so for clarification, this is what they wrote that we are referring to.
It's not an edit, addition or subtraction of anything we wrote, only a clarification of what they wrote that we are referring to in our own unchanged text. Sorry for the formatting boo-boo. Just FYI! :thumb:
It is nothing more than a quote from our opponents, Team NW, so for clarification, this is what they wrote that we are referring to.
WandererInFog said:
It's not an edit, addition or subtraction of anything we wrote, only a clarification of what they wrote that we are referring to in our own unchanged text. Sorry for the formatting boo-boo. Just FYI! :thumb:
If "GG" is going to attempt to win this debate, (which, regardless of the specified question being debating, I am reading the debate as though they are trying to convince me that voting for McCain isn't the best of all available options), GG is not going to succeed by telling me how evil John McCain is. GG is not going to succeed in doing that by telling me "We shouldn't do evil that good may come of it". GG isn't going to succeed in doing that by making one fallacious guilt by association fallacy after another, either.
If GG wants to convince me that voting for McCain isn't the wisest course of action, they will have to demonstrate to me how a vote taken away from McCain does not help Obama during this specific election cycle. They will have to establish for me that Obama isn't benefiting from having Alan Keyes running in Colorado. They will have to explain to me how Christians who dilute the effectiveness of their ballot by either voting for a hopeless candidate or not voting at all doesn't make the effort to win the White House easier for the MOST vile of those who do have a real chance of winning.
Resting in Him,
Clete
[I am, by the way, astonished at the intellectual dishonesty of those on this website (not just in the Battle Royale) arguing what is obviously a very emotional issue. I actually WANT to be convinced that I'm wrong on this issue and you guys seem almost universally incapable of establishing your position without unwarranted name calling, guilt by association fallacies, false dichotomy fallacies, and pure unadulterated emotionalism. Now, as all of you know, I'm all for calling someone an idiot WHEN doing so is called for but many of you have resorted to that sort of thing simply because I and others have held your feet to the fire one too many times. All of you need to repent. If you can't convince me, a man who started this whole thing because he simply wanted to learn the actual arguments, then you've got serious problems and probably should sit back and think about why that's the case.]
If GG wants to convince me that voting for McCain isn't the wisest course of action, they will have to demonstrate to me how a vote taken away from McCain does not help Obama during this specific election cycle. They will have to establish for me that Obama isn't benefiting from having Alan Keyes running in Colorado. They will have to explain to me how Christians who dilute the effectiveness of their ballot by either voting for a hopeless candidate or not voting at all doesn't make the effort to win the White House easier for the MOST vile of those who do have a real chance of winning.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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The Graphite
New member
Stay tuned, Clete. We're not even halfway. And we will address your concerns in due time. We can't address every person's concern immediately in the first post.
To everything, turn, turn, turn...
To everything, turn, turn, turn...
Now the question is why did He put them under these rulers?
1And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
. . .
20Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
. . .
37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
1Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;
2(After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem
3By the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan, and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, (whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent unto Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon) saying,
4Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
5Build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them;
6Take ye wives, and beget sons and daughters; and take wives for your sons, and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; that ye may be increased there, and not diminished.
7And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.
The other one is what makes you think Americans are God's people?
Clete,
Let's suppose there were three people running for president. Someone who believes a certain wicked act should be legal, another who thinks that said wicked act is ok in certain circumstances, and the third who is a Christian Godly man believes that said wicked act is immoral and should never be done.
Without the benefit of the media (tv, newspapers, web, etc...) who continue to post polls indicating who is leading at the moment...and you had no idea who everyone else was voting for (everyone kept their vote a secret) would you vote for person #2 or #3 in my scenario?
If your vote isn't for #3, why?
If your vote is for #2 (and #2 wins), do you believe that you are or are not somewhat responsible for the said wicked acts committed during person #2's time in office (having known full well that the acts would continue prior to voting and knowing your vote helped elect the person)?
Let's suppose there were three people running for president. Someone who believes a certain wicked act should be legal, another who thinks that said wicked act is ok in certain circumstances, and the third who is a Christian Godly man believes that said wicked act is immoral and should never be done.
Without the benefit of the media (tv, newspapers, web, etc...) who continue to post polls indicating who is leading at the moment...and you had no idea who everyone else was voting for (everyone kept their vote a secret) would you vote for person #2 or #3 in my scenario?
If your vote isn't for #3, why?
If your vote is for #2 (and #2 wins), do you believe that you are or are not somewhat responsible for the said wicked acts committed during person #2's time in office (having known full well that the acts would continue prior to voting and knowing your vote helped elect the person)?
GG said:
This statement was made in round 2A by team GG. Based on this sentence, it would be a moral imperative NOT to vote for ANY candidate EVER as there is no man who perfectly advocates God's absolute standard. For all have fallen short of the God's glory.
The Graphite
New member
CM, I believe you should read a little more carefully. You are mistaken. But I will leave our arguments for our posts.
I read your whole post. But after that sentence, what more can you say? If you should for the candidate that advocates God's standard of absolute right and wrong, and neither candidate does, then you should not vote for either. If you do, you are choosing the lesser of two evils and violating your obligation to uphold God's standards.
Is it morally acceptable to vote for the candidate who almost advocates God's standards? If so, which of God's standards can be relaxed to make vote for them acceptable?
genuineoriginal
New member
He put them under Nebuchadnezzar to punish them for turning away from Him and to get them to repent and turn back to Him, according to the prophecies.
He put them in Egypt to save them from the famine.
He put them under Pharoh to show His mighty power and to force them to leave Egypt so they could go into the land flowing with milk and honey that He promised to give to them.
I believe He put them under Hitler to cause the world to bring forth the nation of Israel in a single day to fulfill the prophecy.
Americans are not God's people, but there is a percentage of Americans who actually believe in God.
That percent is not large enough to vote in a godly candidate, but it is large enough to be heard.
The day of the return of Jesus is close at hand, and God is making sure that all the pieces are in place to fulfill the prophecies.
The job of the people who believe in God is to make sure that God's word is heard, whether anyone listens or not.
We are entering into a time in history where the people who believe in God will have to take a stand against the evil in the world or reject God and follow the world.
God may (or not) be setting up an evil person to take command of the United States.
If so, it is for His purposes, and all we can do is speak out against the evil and overcome through our testimony of Jesus.
genuineoriginal
New member
The first post of the second round is up.
Team GG started by addressing the chain of logic used by team NW, and appears to have succeded in breaking that chain.
This was done despite using irrelevant examples like trying to figure out why a racist would vote for someone that wasn't a racist.
After some sniping at team NW, team GG did a good job of answering their questions and disarming the arguments behind those questions.
The strongest argument presented by team GG was buried in the middle of their new questions:
Team GG weakened their comeback by turning to a number of hypothetical situations and asking their questions.
The passage was about whether believers should confront other believers over trying to follow their conscience about what was sin and the answer was that telling a weaker believer that something was not a sin could cause the weaker believer to do something they believed was a sin.
This could have been turned into a powerful argument against team NW's entire position (saying it was not immoral to vote for McCain could lead weak believers to doubt and cast a vote for McCain against their beliefs).
Team GG failed to see this.
No, the driver sinned by sitting there doing nothing while the murderer and robber got away.
Yes, the driver knowingly aided a murderer and robber.
Yes, the driver knowingly aided the murder and robbery by knowingly helping another person who was aiding the murderer and robber
The question was not valid the first time and nothing has changed since then.
GG has still not stated WHY they believe that it is immoral to vote for McCain/Palin and now they are asking team NW to figure out what the team GG arguments should be.
In round two, team GG had started making a comback from a poor showing in round one, but ended where they started from by not being able to state their position and resorting to asking team NW to tell them if they were on the right track.
I really wish team GG knew the answers to the last three questions they asked because they could have been the basis for winning the Battle Royal.
As it stands, the last three questions seem to be saying that team GG isn't sure they should even be in the debate.
Team GG started by addressing the chain of logic used by team NW, and appears to have succeded in breaking that chain.
This was done despite using irrelevant examples like trying to figure out why a racist would vote for someone that wasn't a racist.
After some sniping at team NW, team GG did a good job of answering their questions and disarming the arguments behind those questions.
The strongest argument presented by team GG was buried in the middle of their new questions:
Team GG weakened their comeback by turning to a number of hypothetical situations and asking their questions.
(Speaking for myself and not for team NW) The question rambles, but I would say that it does not equate.
The passage was about whether believers should confront other believers over trying to follow their conscience about what was sin and the answer was that telling a weaker believer that something was not a sin could cause the weaker believer to do something they believed was a sin.
This could have been turned into a powerful argument against team NW's entire position (saying it was not immoral to vote for McCain could lead weak believers to doubt and cast a vote for McCain against their beliefs).
Team GG failed to see this.
(The driver did not know the person he was giving a ride would rob a bank and kill the teller).
No, the driver sinned by sitting there doing nothing while the murderer and robber got away.
(The person told the driver about plans to kill the teller and rob the bank before being given a ride).
Yes, the driver knowingly aided a murderer and robber.
(The person told the driver that he was helping a friend who had plans to kill the teller and rob the bank before being given a ride).
Yes, the driver knowingly aided the murder and robbery by knowingly helping another person who was aiding the murderer and robber
(Repeat of GGQ2 from first round).
The question was not valid the first time and nothing has changed since then.
I am very confused by GG asking these three questions.
GG has still not stated WHY they believe that it is immoral to vote for McCain/Palin and now they are asking team NW to figure out what the team GG arguments should be.
In round two, team GG had started making a comback from a poor showing in round one, but ended where they started from by not being able to state their position and resorting to asking team NW to tell them if they were on the right track.
I really wish team GG knew the answers to the last three questions they asked because they could have been the basis for winning the Battle Royal.
As it stands, the last three questions seem to be saying that team GG isn't sure they should even be in the debate.
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