Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII

[genuineoriginal]

Irrelevant. Everyone knows McCain is evil and everyone also knows that Keyes is entirely incapable of winning the election.
If Keyes gets a sufficient number of votes we will have him to thank for getting Obama as president just like we have Ross Perot to thank for Bill Clinton.

I still cannot find anywhere in the Bible where it says to support evil to prevent greater evil.

I did find this:

1 Corinthians 5 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.​

If McCain is evil, Christians need to distance themselves from him, not support him.

Philippians 2 15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.​

If McCain is evil, Christians who vote for him are not without rebuke and are not shining as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It's a lot of factors, with downturn in the economy being one obvious example. However, the biggest ones are large scale demographic shifts. A couple of the big examples would be the growth of the Latino population which trends strongly liberal, more of the Millenial generation reaching voting age, and the rarely talked about but huge shifts in the religious makeup of the US (The category of "Secular/non-religious" is fastest growing religious demographic in the United States, now making up 20%+ of the US population).

Don't forget the public school curriculum which has been teaching children liberal values since the late 70s.
It is the main reason that only 5% of Southern Baptist children remain in the faith after high school.

 

[WandererInFog]

Don't forget the public school curriculum which has been teaching children liberal values since the late 70s.
It is the main reason that only 5% of Southern Baptist children remain in the faith after high school.

While I think that certainly is one of the reasons which the Millenial generation is rapidly leaving the faith, it's hardly the only one. If your 5% figure is accurate, that means there's a lot of students who attended private, religious schools who are leaving the faith. (Looking at the population as a whole 10% of students attend private schools, the cast majority of which are religious. I would have to imagine that the percentage of Southern Baptist Children attend such schools would be even higher.)

To get further than that into why I believe a lot of this is happening though would take us way off the topic of this thread, but I'd be happy to take it up in another one if people think it would make a good topic for discussion.

 

[genuineoriginal]

While I think that certainly is one of the reasons which the Millenial generation is rapidly leaving the faith, it's hardly the only one. If your 5% figure is accurate, that means there's a lot of students who attended private, religious schools who are leaving the faith. (Looking at the population as a whole 10% of students attend private schools, the cast majority of which are religious. I would have to imagine that the percentage of Southern Baptist Children attend such schools would be even higher.)

To get further than that into why I believe a lot of this is happening though would take us way off the topic of this thread, but I'd be happy to take it up in another one if people think it would make a good topic for discussion.

After further research, my 5% figure may be inaccurate.
This article says that 88% leave the faith never to return, but does not say how many leave and later return.
It does not say what percent remains in the faith after high school, which is the figure I was trying to estimate.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Round 4 - part 2 - team NW

Team NW begins with a quote from CS Lewis

C.S. Lewis on Progress
"If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man. We have seen this when we do arithmetic. When I have started a sum the wrong way, the sooner I admit this and go back and start over again, the faster I shall get on. There is nothing progressive about being pigheaded and refusing to admit a mistake."
From Mere Christianity​

This was a serious error on the part of team NW because this quote presents the best argument against Christians continuing to vote Republican made in any of the threads.
The Republicans are on the wrong road and Christians who are voting for Republicans like McCain are being pigheaded and refusing to admit a mistake.

The next error on the part of team NW comes in comparing McCain to King David.
King David repented of his sins with sackcloth and ashes and used his resources to turn the nation towards worshipping God.
McCain does not plan to do either.

Team NW continues their path of errors by quoting a passage about counting the cost.
The full passage quoted is this:

Luke 14 25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? 35It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

Team NW tries to apply the passage to determining the best strategy for stopping abortion.
The passage is not about how much a person should compromise with evil in order to further a strategy for combatting a greater evil.
The passage is clearly about whether a person is willing to give up everything in order to follow Jesus.
In light of the full passage, it looks like a follower of Jesus will vote for the righteous candidate even if the election is lost.

Team NW asks two questions in this round:

NWQ12: Which candidates are printed on the ballots of a statistically significant number of states, where "statistically significant" is defined as a number that shows a statistical possibility of being elected President?

NWQ10: What is the benefit of a vote cast for a candidate who cannot win?

In the end, team NW's argument ends up as this:
Obama is evil.
Only Obama and McCain have any chance of winning the election.
Vote for McCain to defeat Obama.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[Clete]

I still cannot find anywhere in the Bible where it says to support evil to prevent greater evil.

No one is suggesting that you should.

If McCain is evil, Christians who vote for him are not without rebuke and are not shining as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation.

Guilt trips don't make for very convincing arguments.

God Himself made evil men king over Israel because He didn't have any other choice. We don't have any other choice either which is why I am arguing from the inverse mindset that you are. That is I am arguing from the mindset of defeating the worse of two evils rather than supporting the lesser of them. You can continue to interpret my argument as something other than it is but if you intend to convince me of something I'd advise changing your tactic.

The bottom line, as I've stated over and over again now, is that Keyes and other third party candidates present Obama with an enhanced chance to win that he wouldn't otherwise have.

Ross Perot split the conservative vote and gave us Bill Clinton; Keyes is going a long way toward giving us Obama. That's not the way I want things to be but that is the way things are. In other words, the reality of our situation is that we are going to have either McCain or Obama as president. We hate both but are stuck with one or the other and so we have to figure out which of the two will present the greatest threat to the Christian agenda and act in the most effective manner to prevent his winning the election.

We're basically in a situation where we get an opportunity to choose the enemy we are going to spend the next four year fighting. We get to choose whether we want to fight the mostly one front war against abortion or to fight a war on several fronts just to maintain the status quo of our civil and religious rights as Christians. I think choosing a course of action that makes the later more likely is foolish and counter productive.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

So, your premise is that good cannot win so we must support evil?

No! I do not support McCain!
I despise McCain!

Just how evil must a candidate be before you stop supporting him?

I do not support evil. I've said a thousand times that a vote for a particular candidate can be cast for any number of reasons and cannot rightly be assumed to be an outright endorsement of that candidate or his policies. That's the premise you guys are all arguing from but it is a false premise! Endorsement of a candidate is one possible motivation for a vote but it is not the only one. If you don't believe me, just ask virtually any Republican who intends to vote in this election.

Are you willing to vote for a candidate who is in favor of homosexual marriage to stop a candidate who opposes traditional marriage?
Are you willing to vote for a candidate who is in favor of interring Jews in concentration camps to stop a candidate who is in favor of exterminating Jews?

You can fight fire with fire, but you cannot fight evil with evil.

You can't personally fight evil with evil but you can allow your enemies to fight each other and you can keep yourself from making it easier for the worse of two evils to gain a position of authority over you, your family and your nation.

It is not within our power to prevent this country from being evil. The fact is that this country is evil and that is going to get worse. All we can do is apply our influence in the most effective manner in order to slow that inevitable progression.

That's not to say that America cannot repent or that we should strive toward the goal of getting it to repent but it isn't going to repent between now and the Novemeber election and so the choice you've got is McCain or Obama. Figure out which one you least want to spend the next four years fighting and vote in a way that actually helps secure his defeat. Any other course of action is counter productive toward our goals.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[genuineoriginal]

No one is suggesting that you should.


Guilt trips don't make for very convincing arguments.

God Himself made evil men king over Israel because He didn't have any other choice. We don't have any other choice either which is why I am arguing from the inverse mindset that you are. That is I am arguing from the mindset of defeating the worse of two evils rather than supporting the lesser of them. You can continue to interpret my argument as something other than it is but if you intend to convince me of something I'd advise changing your tactic.

The bottom line, as I've stated over and over again now, is that Keyes and other third party candidates present Obama with an enhanced chance to win that he wouldn't otherwise have.

Ross Perot split the conservative vote and gave us Bill Clinton; Keyes is going a long way toward giving us Obama. That's not the way I want things to be but that is the way things are. In other words, the reality of our situation is that we are going to have either McCain or Obama as president. We hate both but are stuck with one or the other and so we have to figure out which of the two will present the greatest threat to the Christian agenda and act in the most effective manner to prevent his winning the election.

We're basically in a situation where we get an opportunity to choose the enemy we are going to spend the next four year fighting. We get to choose whether we want to fight the mostly one front war against abortion or to fight a war on several fronts just to maintain the status quo of our civil and religious rights as Christians. I think choosing a course of action that makes the later more likely is foolish and counter productive.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Yes, I understand your argument.
You want to defeat Obama through numerical supremecy.
This is a very logical argument.

You do not seem to understand my argument.
I am not trying to lay any guilt trips.
I am trying to apply the Biblical principles needed for winning and they do not include numerical supremecy.

How many people did God use to defeat the Midianites?:

Judges 6 1And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. 2And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel: and because of the Midianites the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the mountains, and caves, and strong holds. 3And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them; 4And they encamped against them, and destroyed the increase of the earth, till thou come unto Gaza, and left no sustenance for Israel, neither sheep, nor ox, nor ***. 5For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came as grasshoppers for multitude; for both they and their camels were without number: and they entered into the land to destroy it. [. . .] Judges 7 1Then Jerubbaal, who is Gideon, and all the people that were with him, rose up early, and pitched beside the well of Harod: so that the host of the Midianites were on the north side of them, by the hill of Moreh, in the valley. 2And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. 3Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand. 4And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go. 5So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. 6And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. 7And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.​

How many people did God use to turn the Ninevites to repentance?:

Jonah 3 3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. ​

You want to defeat Obama through might and power?:

Zechariah 4 6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.​

 

[Lighthouse]

I wonder how long it will be before anyone gets a pair of nuts and responds to my argument with some substance?

Perhaps never? :think:

I already did. But you're too much of a whiny little snit to pay attention to someone because they happened to recognize your idiocy in this debate.

Whether you like the answer or not it remains the same. McCain is not any better than Obama and Obama is no worse than McCain. There is no lesser of two evils here. And whether you believe that or not, we do. And when you want both people to lose, and only on of them loses, you don't care which one of them it is. You're only mad that it wasn't both of them.

 

[kmoney]

I already did. But you're too much of a whiny little snit to pay

If ever there is a time when the pot/kettle/black phrase would be appropriate......

:chuckle:

 

[Clete]

Just as we have Ralph Nader to thank for GW Bush, and for the fact that the Democrats have done a hard left to satisfy their base!

Exactly!

What makes you think that a principle that works against the Democrats doesn't function against the conservatives in the same way?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend!

When it comes to defeating McCain, Keyes is Obama's friend just as when it comes to defeating Obama, McCain is our friend. We my not like McCain but that doesn't have anything to do with it! If the goal here is to defeat the worse of two evils then McCain is the only candidate that can get that job done. The question is how badly do we want it done and are we going to be tricked into thinking that we have to get into bed with McCain just because we voted against Obama. The use of one's enemy to defeat a greater enemy is a wise thing to do.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[genuineoriginal]

No! I do not support McCain!
I despise McCain!

So, you insist people vote for a man you despise in order to keep a man you hate out of office.

I do not support evil. I've said a thousand times that a vote for a particular candidate can be cast for any number of reasons and cannot rightly be assumed to be an outright endorsement of that candidate or his policies. That's the premise you guys are all arguing from but it is a false premise! Endorsement of a candidate is one possible motivation for a vote but it is not the only one. If you don't believe me, just ask virtually any Republican who intends to vote in this election.

Your premise is reactionary.
The other main candidate is extremely undesirable so you must react by voting for someone that is very undesirable.

My premise is proactive.
The Republicans will not give voters a desirable candidate as long as they can keep winning with undesirable candidates.

 

[Clete]

I understand that you haven't agreed with my responses but I would very much like you to admit that they have been consistent and rational.

Indeed you have always been both respectful, consistent and constructive.

It seems as though I may have overlooked some of your posts. If so, it hasn't been intentional; I've sort of gotten dog piled on this one.

Have you directly addressed my arguments concerning third party candidates helping the worse of two evils win the election? If so, could you please point them out to me so that I can read them and respond?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

So, you insist people vote for a man you despise in order to keep a man you hate out of office.

Your premise is reactionary.
The other main candidate is extremely undesirable so you must react by voting for someone that is very undesirable.

My premise is proactive.
The Republicans will not give voters a desirable candidate as long as they can keep winning with undesirable candidates.

Your "proactive premise" will help destroy everything this country stands for. You're fixing to lose a lot more than just the fight against abortion.

I'm done repeating myself. My position is clear enough. All you seem capable of is twisting it so that you don't have to deal with it so don't deal with it. I no longer care.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I already did. But you're too much of a whiny little snit to pay attention to someone because they happened to recognize your idiocy in this debate.

Don't be a hypocrite Lighthouse.

I stopped reading you posts weeks ago when you proved incapable of doing anything other than ridicule and irrational emotionalism. I wouldn't have even seen this post if someone hadn't quoted the post and pointed out your hypocrisy.

Point me to the post where you've rationally dealt directly with my arguments and I'll respond to it.

Whether you like the answer or not it remains the same. McCain is not any better than Obama and Obama is no worse than McCain. There is no lesser of two evils here. And whether you believe that or not, we do.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Lighthouse and I don't care what you believe. What I want is for you to ESTABLISH the things you say with a RATIONALLY SOUND argument!

And when you want both people to lose, and only on of them loses, you don't care which one of them it is. You're only mad that it wasn't both of them.

If your premise that both McCain and Obama are equally evil then this would be the proper response but there's no way you're going to be able to prove that premise. There's not one single issue that Obama isn't dramatically further to the left (i.e. more evil) on than McCain.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Yes, I understand your argument.
You want to defeat Obama through numerical supremecy.
This is a very logical argument.

You do not seem to understand my argument.
I am not trying to lay any guilt trips.
I am trying to apply the Biblical principles needed for winning and they do not include numerical supremecy.

How many people did God use to defeat the Midianites?:

Judges 6 1And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. 2And the hand of Midian prevailed against Israel: and because of the Midianites the children of Israel made them the dens which are in the mountains, and caves, and strong holds. 3And so it was, when Israel had sown, that the Midianites came up, and the Amalekites, and the children of the east, even they came up against them; 4And they encamped against them, and destroyed the increase of the earth, till thou come unto Gaza, and left no sustenance for Israel, neither sheep, nor ox, nor ***. 5For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came as grasshoppers for multitude; for both they and their camels were without number: and they entered into the land to destroy it. [. . .] Judges 7 1Then Jerubbaal, who is Gideon, and all the people that were with him, rose up early, and pitched beside the well of Harod: so that the host of the Midianites were on the north side of them, by the hill of Moreh, in the valley. 2And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people that are with thee are too many for me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against me, saying, Mine own hand hath saved me. 3Now therefore go to, proclaim in the ears of the people, saying, Whosoever is fearful and afraid, let him return and depart early from mount Gilead. And there returned of the people twenty and two thousand; and there remained ten thousand. 4And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go. 5So he brought down the people unto the water: and the LORD said unto Gideon, Every one that lappeth of the water with his tongue, as a dog lappeth, him shalt thou set by himself; likewise every one that boweth down upon his knees to drink. 6And the number of them that lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, were three hundred men: but all the rest of the people bowed down upon their knees to drink water. 7And the LORD said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand: and let all the other people go every man unto his place.​

How many people did God use to turn the Ninevites to repentance?:

Jonah 3 3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. ​

You want to defeat Obama through might and power?:

Zechariah 4 6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.​

If God wants to defeat Obama supernaturally then that's great by me! But if that is the case then it makes no difference who we vote for.

The fact is that God is not in the business of hand picking the President of the United States. The people of the United States pick their own president and God expects us to live with the consequences. Happily the evil form of government we live under has afforded us the opportunity to have an effect on the outcome of its elections. All I am saying is that we should use that opportunity to its fullest effect. If we can get a righteous man into the White House then great! But if we can't then we attempt to mitigate the damage by helping the worse of two evils lose.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[genuineoriginal]

Your "proactive premise" will help destroy everything this country stands for. You're fixing to lose a lot more than just the fight against abortion.

I'm done repeating myself. My position is clear enough. All you seem capable of is twisting it so that you don't have to deal with it so don't deal with it. I no longer care.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Your responses make it clear that you never cared what my position was.

I cannot find a Biblical basis for your position, and you have not provided one.

I have provided Biblical basis for my position, but you say I am twisting it.

Here is more Biblical support for not supporting a policy of voting for McCain to stop Obama:

Matthew 5 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.​

 

[Lighthouse]

Don't be a hypocrite Lighthouse.

I stopped reading you posts weeks ago when you proved incapable of doing anything other than ridicule and irrational emotionalism.

I'm not incapable of it, your argument just isn't worth anything else. But your question was. So I answered it. We don't care if McCain loses. We want him to. And since we don't believe he is any better than Obama we don't think it will make a difference if Obama wins rather than McCain. We want them both to lose. At least one of them will. And we don't care which one it is.

I wouldn't have even seen this post if someone hadn't quoted the post and pointed out your hypocrisy.

Meh.

Point me to the post where you've rationally dealt directly with my arguments and I'll respond to it.

I've answered you question rationally. And that is all I said I have done.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Lighthouse and I don't care what you believe. What I want is for you to ESTABLISH the things you say with a RATIONALLY SOUND argument!

How is what I said not rationally sound? We do not believe one to be better, or worse, than the other. If Obama loses we will be happy he lost. If McCain loses we will be happy he lost. If Obama wins we will be unhappy he won. If McCain wins we will be unhappy he won.

Whether or not we are right in that belief is not part of the answer to the specific question I addressed.

If your premise that both McCain and Obama are equally evil then this would be the proper response but there's no way you're going to be able to prove that premise. There's not one single issue that Obama isn't dramatically further to the left (i.e. more evil) on than McCain.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Can you back that up?

And does that even matter? I don't take McCain at his word. I took Bush at his word and he didn't keep it. I'm not going to trust the new Republican nominee this time.:nono:

 

[Clete]

Your responses make it clear that you never cared what my position was.

I've held to your position for a decade and have argued it profusely for most of that time.

I cannot find a Biblical basis for your position, and you have not provided one.

I've provided a rational basis for my position that you refuse to respond to. Are you suggesting that the Biblical position is in contradiction to rationality? If so then I'll thank you for conceding the debate. If not then demonstrate the flaw in my logic.

I have provided Biblical basis for my position, but you say I am twisting it.

You are twisting MY position and I can argue your position better than you can!

Look, you aren't getting my purpose here so lets start over so that we don't talk past one another and waste everyone's time and end up doing nothing but making each other angry.

I've heard every argument for the "Don't vote for the lesser of two evils!" side of this debate. I've argued that side of the debate hundreds of times over the years and I totally get it. But I'm not satisfied with just having good arguments for my own position. I want to be the only guy in the room with good arguments! The only way that's possible is to know and understand the oppositions arguments. To that end I am all the time analyzing my own beliefs and positions, debating with myself to see if I can poke holes in them. Usually, when I think I've poked a hole, I present it here and it takes about five minutes for me to get a response that demonstrates how I hadn't poked the hole I thought I had. And, as a result, I am better equipped to argue my positions against all comers because I'm less likely to come across an argument that I've not thought through before.

But this time, the hole I poked didn't get patched! The hole I poked several weeks ago now hasn't done anything but get much much worse. If your position on this debate is true then you should be able to defeat my arguments with sound counter arguments. If my position is false, then you (or someone) should be able to demonstrate it as such. But nothing of the sort has happened so far.

This confusion is why I've been so insistent that all these other arguments about how evil McCain is and whatever else are all irrelevant. I acknowledge that McCain is evil. I acknowledge that McCain will at best only attempt to further regulate abortion. But none of that has anything to do with the key point I've been making which is that Obama is a far cry worse because while McCain may only maintain the status quo, Obama is a rabid baby killing socialist who wants to enact legislation that will set the fight against abortion back 20 years, (Not to mention all the other evil **** the guy wants to do.), and that we shouldn't adopt a strategy that enables the worse of two evils to gain an advantage over not only the lesser of the two evils but over us as well.

So, if we had a candidate that could win, I'd be all for voting for him, but we don't and so the game isn't about winning, its about mitigating our loss. Just as Turbo's signature banner says, "McCain vs. Obams, Whoever wins, we lose." That's exactly the situation we are in. So do you want to lose to a lesser or greater degree. That's the question you have to answer when you step into that voting booth.

Now, all I've ever wanted anyone to do is to explain to me in some rational way...

How am I wrong?

Here is more Biblical support for not supporting a policy of voting for McCain to stop Obama:

Matthew 5 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.​

This is an out of context application of Scripture. The context of this passage has to do with living life in the Jewish Millennial Kingdom. Attempting to apply this passage to the life of a modern Christian is simply an incorrect use of Scripture.

(See Bob Enyart's Bible study on the Sermon on the Mount for a detailed substantiation of this point. Or, if you have access to him, just ask him about it in person. I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss it with you in detail.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

How is what I said not rationally sound?

What you said isn't irrational in and of itself but it does not address the argument and so as a response to the argument is it irrational.

It would like if I said 2+2=4 and you counter with, "No, not all apples are red!"

The one has nothing to do with the other!

We do not believe one to be better, or worse, than the other.

Who cares? Why is what you BELIEVE relevant?

If Obama loses we will be happy he lost. If McCain loses we will be happy he lost. If Obama wins we will be unhappy he won. If McCain wins we will be unhappy he won.

So what? How is your peace of mind or lack thereof relevant?

Whether or not we are right in that belief is not part of the answer to the specific question I addressed.

YES IT IS!!! Whether you are right or not is THE ONLY THING that would make your position make any sense!

What if you're wrong about McCain and Obama being equally evil?
This whole response of yours is predicated entirely on the fact that you believe you aren't wrong, but what if you are? How do you know you aren't wrong?

If you're right about their being equally evil then that puts a pretty big dent in my argument! But I don't have to just insist that Obama is worse, I can actually make a real and substantive case for the fact that he is clearly worse from any direction you want to look at it from.

So if you want to make an argument that attempts to establish the equally evil nature of McCain and Obama then I'd be happy to read it.

Can you back that up?

And does that even matter? I don't take McCain at his word. I took Bush at his word and he didn't keep it. I'm not going to trust the new Republican nominee this time.:nono:

Of course it matters. Your entire position is predicated on it and yes I can back it up. McCain and Obama both have very clear records. Of the two, who is considered the most liberal member of Congress? Of the two, who has radical left wing associates who've attempted to bomb the Capital building? Of the two, who has the wife who has spent her entire adult life being something other than proud of her country? Of the two, who voted against legislation making it illegal to kill a baby born alive after a botched abortion? Of the two, who has picked the third most liberal Senator in the Congress as his running mate? Of the two, who doesn't have the running mate who willfully and happily chose to carry a Down's Syndrome Baby to term rather than aborting it? Of the two, who flips and flops on the issue of your right to carry a fire arm? Of the two, who believes in the fairness doctrine? Of the two, who wants to sit down and talk with terrorists and tyrants without preconditions?

On and on one could go, showing issue after issue after issue where Barrack Husein Obama II is easily the most liberal, the most evil and the most unqualified man to ever run for the office of President in the history of the United States of America.

Resting in Him,
Clete