Discussion thread for AMR and God's Truth Trinity Debate.

[glorydaz]

That is right. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

You say yes and no to my question of are they the same.

You say no that are not the same person but they are the same God.
That MAKES JESUS GOD THE FATHER.

You PROVED THAT TRINITARIANS have three different Gods.

Great, then you should be able to show us where the Father died on the Cross.

 

[godrulz]

Great, then you should be able to show us where the Father died on the Cross.

The Father loves the Son, sent the Son. The Son prays to the Father. We see subject and subject/object. The Son dies on the cross, while the Father is in heaven. The Father speaks from heaven while the Son is on earth. The Word (Son) is with the Father (personally distinct), yet of the same nature as the Father (Jn. 1:1 qualitative, anarthrous use).

Oneness, modalism, Sabellianism (and the nuanced varieties under this label) denies biblical revelation by trying to put God in a reason box.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

GT,

The term "person" does not mean a distinction in essence but a different subsistence in the Godhead.

A subsistence in the Godhead is a real difference but not an essential difference in the sense of a difference in being. Subsistence is a difference within the scope of being, not a separate being or essence.

AMR

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

That is right. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

You say yes and no to my question of are they the same.

You say no that are not the same person but they are the same God.
That MAKES JESUS GOD THE FATHER.


You PROVED THAT TRINITARIANS have three different Gods.

For many years, I have had no love lost for the majority of professing Trinitarians because of their erroneous doctrine and the rampant perversion of it. But you simply take this much too far.

The TRUE or Orthodox Trinity doctrine is not three gods, even if it is often misrepresented by those who wrongly believe it means the three alleged "persons" have minds/wills like three guys on a couch.

Even though it's a modern majority of professing Trinitarians over the most recent centuries, it's not a polytheistic doctrine. You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting it; and doing harm to others with false accusations.

I know Trinitarians can be insufferable, believe me. I've contended with them for many years, and even attended Oneness fellowships for several years to be rid of the silliness of their overall ignorance and indoctrination.

But please take heed as I beseech you. The orthodox Trinity doctrine may be unscriptural, but it is NOT polytheistic. It does NOT represent three gods. You lose effectiveness and credibility by mischaracterizing it as such.

Please consider my plea. It is earnest and intended for your edification.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The Father loves the Son, sent the Son. The Son prays to the Father. We see subject and subject/object. The Son dies on the cross, while the Father is in heaven. The Father speaks from heaven while the Son is on earth. The Word (Son) is with the Father (personally distinct), yet of the same nature as the Father (Jn. 1:1 qualitative, anarthrous use).

Oneness, modalism, Sabellianism (and the nuanced varieties under this label) denies biblical revelation by trying to put God in a reason box.

There is no greater application of "putting God in a reason box" than the Trinity doctrine; especially the rampant epidemic of Triadism that you and others purvey.

There is a modern Oneness variant that eschews both Sequential and Dynamic Monarchianism, and avoids Nestorianism while demonstrating the Father is not the Son without resorting to Trinitarianism. It therefore isn't Modalism in any form as Patripassianism or Sabellianism (though I suspect it to be what Sabellius actually taught rather than what is historically attributed to him).

This Oneness form (which I don't adhere to, BTW) is at least as close to scriptural as the orthodox Trinity formulation, and much preferable to the pervasive Tridaism that most moderns have ignorantly and conceptually embraced instead of Orthodoxy (like your incorrect understanding).

But God's Truth doesn't fall in that category, depicting the Father as the Son. Too bad everybody's wrong and beating the air for the same central reason of foundational error.

This is just all kinds of ugly and futile.

 

[God's Truth]

For many years, I have had no love lost for the majority of professing Trinitarians because of their erroneous doctrine and the rampant perversion of it. But you simply take this much too far.

The TRUE or Orthodox Trinity doctrine is not three gods, even if it is often misrepresented by those who wrongly believe it means the three alleged "persons" have minds/wills like three guys on a couch.

Even though it's a modern majority of professing Trinitarians over the most recent centuries, it's not a polytheistic doctrine. You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting it; and doing harm to others with false accusations.

I know Trinitarians can be insufferable, believe me. I've contended with them for many years, and even attended Oneness fellowships for several years to be rid of the silliness of their overall ignorance and indoctrination.

But please take heed as I beseech you. The orthodox Trinity doctrine may be unscriptural, but it is NOT polytheistic. It does NOT represent three gods. You lose effectiveness and credibility by mischaracterizing it as such.

Please consider my plea. It is earnest and intended for your edification.

You are the one doing damage.

I am not a Oneness believer.

You are wrong.

Trinitarians make three different Gods.

Please consider more carefully what I have said.

You have said absolutely nothing in defense of the trinity doctrine. You have merely claimed it is right.

 

[God's Truth]

GT,

The term "person" does not mean a distinction in essence but a different subsistence in the Godhead.

A subsistence in the Godhead is a real difference but not an essential difference in the sense of a difference in being. Subsistence is a difference within the scope of being, not a separate being or essence.

AMR

What you say right there IS to say Jesus is God the Father, but then you deny it, and bring in falseness and confusion by saying they are the same essence and the essence in which they are the same YOU DENY.

I have already explained this to you in our one on one debate.

You went against the truth at what the essence was, and, if you were to admit the truth that the same essence shared is the Spirit---you would have to admit that I am right.

God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same Spirit, which makes them the same.

 

[God's Truth]

There is no greater application of "putting God in a reason box" than the Trinity doctrine; especially the rampant epidemic of Triadism that you and others purvey.

There is a modern Oneness variant that eschews both Sequential and Dynamic Monarchianism, and avoids Nestorianism while demonstrating the Father is not the Son without resorting to Trinitarianism. It therefore isn't Modalism in any form as Patripassianism or Sabellianism (though I suspect it to be what Sabellius actually taught rather than what is historically attributed to him).

This Oneness form (which I don't adhere to, BTW) is at least as close to scriptural as the orthodox Trinity formulation, and much preferable to the pervasive Tridaism that most moderns have ignorantly and conceptually embraced instead of Orthodoxy (like your incorrect understanding).

But God's Truth doesn't fall in that category, depicting the Father as the Son. Too bad everybody's wrong and beating the air for the same central reason of foundational error.

This is just all kinds of ugly and futile.

You say a lot of nothing.

Why don't you try to explain your beliefs in detail.

 

[God's Truth]

The Father loves the Son, sent the Son. The Son prays to the Father. We see subject and subject/object. The Son dies on the cross, while the Father is in heaven. The Father speaks from heaven while the Son is on earth. The Word (Son) is with the Father (personally distinct), yet of the same nature as the Father (Jn. 1:1 qualitative, anarthrous use).

Oneness, modalism, Sabellianism (and the nuanced varieties under this label) denies biblical revelation by trying to put God in a reason box.

There is ONLY ONE GOD, and He is the Father. That is what the scriptures say.

This ONE GOD THE FATHER came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. That is what the scriptures say.

 

[God's Truth]

Great, then you should be able to show us where the Father died on the Cross.

There is only One God, and He is the Father.

This One God the Father came in the flesh and died for us.

 

[God's Truth]

They are the same in one sense (all the one spirit nature of God), yet different in another sense (distinct in will/intellect/emotions). You wrongly assume they must be the same in the same sense without recognizing they are different in another sense (1 God in 3 gods or 1 person in 3 persons is a contradiction; 1 God with 3 personal distinctions who are co-equal, co-eternal, co-essential is not a contradiction).

Jesus does NOT have a distinct will from the Father. You speak nonsense. Jesus’ will was to do the Father’s will. Jesus only spoke and did what the Father did.

 

[God's Truth]

God is one in one sense and 3 in a different sense. You mix this up and think we are saying they are 1 and 3 in the same sense.

The creeds, the Bible, theology books, etc. clearly state trinity is not 3 gods (triune is compound unity; tritheism is polytheism). You can reject the trinity, but you are wrong to misrepresent what it actually teaches because you don't understand it (but we do). This is a typical anti-trinitarian rookie mistake. You are wrong and hundreds of millions who accurately represent the trinity (whether it is true or not) are right.

Just because they deny they make three Gods it does not make what they say true.

 

[God's Truth]

Yep, you do prove your beliefs alright but, being able to prove that they are biblical is quite another affair. You have only shown me and others that you are able to cobble scripture together with little or no exegesis, which renders your beliefs to nothing more than uneducated opinion. You had multiple opourtunites to engage AMR, and define your beliefs in granulated form and hold your position based on sound exegesis and failed miserably.In a debate setting you have to prove your position not just spam scripture verses and say "because I said so". In the end we all saw that you are all thrust, no vector. (rocket speak for going nowhere fast)

Your put downs to me and bragging on yourself and in others is worthless.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You say a lot of nothing.

No need to get nasty with me. I have only barely poked my toe n this thread.

And I say plenty. Most say it's way too much, not nothing.

Why don't you try to explain your beliefs in detail.

I have done so copiously on my thread.

And my post above was addressed to a professing Trinitarian in correction.

The Father is not the Son. God's Word is the Son. His Word was with and was Him.

It was the Word manifest in the flesh, not the Father. Since God's Word was with Him and divine, the Word is God manifest in the flesh.

The One God and Savior Jesus Christ is the Word, not the Father. There doesn't have to be a Trinity to understand that. And the Trinity isn't multiple gods, even if they AND you misunderstand it.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

You are the one doing damage.

I am not a Oneness believer.

You are wrong.

Trinitarians make three different Gods.

Please consider more carefully what I haves said.

You have said absolutely nothing in defense of the trinity doctrine. You have merely claimed it is right.

I haven't claimed the Trinity doctrine is right since I was saved over 16 years ago OUT OF Trinitarian error.

I've very carefully considered all you've said, and without saying much because you're literally a rabid dog biting everyone.

I don't and won't defend the Trinity doctrine, but you misrepresent it and make yourself (and other non-Trinitarians) look foolish and irrational.

The Orthodox Trinity doctrine is wrong. But it isn't three gods.

 

[God's Truth]

The bolded is what i believe, so no, i only proved they are the same God.

You can lie all day and it doesnt change what we believe. We have never ever ever stated we believe in 3 Gods no matter how much you wish to lie about it.

You cannot say they are the same God and yet they are different. That is against logic, and more importantly, it is against the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

I haven't claimed the Trinity doctrine is right since I was saved over 16 years ago OUT OF Trinitarian error.

I've very carefully considered all you've said, and without saying much because you're literally a rabid dog biting everyone.

I don't and won't defend the Trinity doctrine, but you misrepresent it and make yourself (and other non-Trinitarians) look foolish and irrational.

The Orthodox Trinity doctrine is wrong. But it isn't three gods.

You are the rabid dog.

You show you are rabid and not mentally right.

You say trinity doctrine is right, then you say it is wrong.

You are senseless and sick.

 

[God's Truth]

No need to get nasty with me. I have only barely poked my toe n this thread.

And I say plenty. Most say it's way too much, not nothing.



I have done so copiously on my thread.

And my post above was addressed to a professing Trinitarian in correction.

The Father is not the Son. God's Word is the Son. His Word was with and was Him.

It was the Word manifest in the flesh, not the Father. Since God's Word was with Him and divine, the Word is God manifest in the flesh.

The One God and Savior Jesus Christ is the Word, not the Father. There doesn't have to be a Trinity to understand that. And the Trinity isn't multiple gods, even if they AND you misunderstand it.

The Father's Word is the Son. His Word was with Him and WAS HIM.

 

[God's Truth]

No need to get nasty with me. I have only barely poked my toe n this thread.

And I say plenty. Most say it's way too much, not nothing.

You are the one who got nasty. You said I was causing damage. Then you say I am a rabid dog.

You want to say those things to me, but you do not like to be judged by your own words.

I have done so copiously on my thread.

I have no idea about your thread.

 

[glorydaz]

You are the one who got nasty. You said I was causing damage. Then you say I am a rabid dog.

You want to say those things to me, but you do not like to be judged by your own words.


I have no idea about your thread.

You are. :chuckle: