Direct assault on Satan (Evil's.<(I)> Naughty List)

JudgeRightly

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Tambora Romans 1 is talking about people who carry on wilfully sinning once they know the truth. Not about those who don't believe that Jesus is God! And by wilfully sinning, we worship the creature rather than the creator. To worship the creator then we are to turn from the lusts of our flesh and do his will and worship the father in Spirit and in truth.

From what I can see from what people of you church post, your church teaches that it is ok to sin even wilfully and you are still saved regardless!

So who's worshipping the creature and not the creator? It's those who live by the will of their flesh and not by the will of God.

Here's the rest of the chapter of Romans 1 after that which you have quoted.


Romans 1 v 26 onward

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;.Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Since you refuse to give a clear answer, let it be known that Marhig says that it's ok to worship beings other than God Himself. (Marhig, you may, if you so choose, say I'm wrong and correct me, and I will accept your correction.)

God, however, says otherwise.

Spoiler
And God spoke all these words, saying:*“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.*“You shall have no other gods before Me.*“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; *you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, *but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. - Exodus 20:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:1-6&version=NKJV


Spoiler
(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), - Exodus 34:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus34:14&version=NKJV


Spoiler
Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, “If you return to the Lord with all your hearts, then put away the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths from among you, and prepare your hearts for the Lord, and serve Him only; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines.” - 1 Samuel 7:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Samuel7:3&version=NKJV


Spoiler
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’” - Matthew 4:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew4:10&version=NKJV


And many other places in the Bible...

Yet, we see Jesus being worshipped in a couple of places. Why were the people worshipping Him not rebuked? If Jesus is not God, as you say, then they were wrong for worshipping Him! Yet even Jesus Himself did not rebuke his disciples when they woshipped Him.

From https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-worshipped.html:

Spoiler
From the beginning of Jesus’ life, we see examples of Him being worshiped. As soon as the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11). The Bible records the initial response Jesus received when He made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem: “So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’” (Matthew 21:9;*John 12:13) The word hosanna is a plea for salvation and an expression of adoration. This word used by the crowd is definitely a form of worship.

Just after Jesus amazed the disciples by walking on water, “those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33). Two more memorable examples of Jesus accepting worship occurred just after His resurrection. Some of the women (Matthew 21:1;*Mark 16:1;*Luke 24:10) were on their way to tell the disciples of the resurrection when Jesus met them on their way. When they realized it was He, they “came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).

Then there is the case of Thomas, who didn't believe Jesus had risen from the dead despite the other disciples’ testifying to that fact. It had been about a week since the resurrection, and Thomas still doubted it. Jesus, knowing Thomas doubted, appeared to him and showed him the nail marks in His hands and feet and the wound in His side. How did Thomas respond? “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). In none of these instances do we see Jesus telling those worshiping Him to stop, as did mere men and even angels who were being worshiped wrongly by others (Acts 10:25–26;*Revelation 19:9–10).


So Marhig, were the people who worshipped Jesus wrong in doing so? If so, why does the Bible present the worship of Him in a positive light?

Or could it be that Jesus IS God, and is therefore worthy (according to the verses I provided above) of the worship He was and is given?

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marhig

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God put Jesus in a place of worship JR but I don't worship Christ Jesus as I worship God. And what did Jesus say that those who truly worshipped God would do? He said that they would worship THE FATHER in Spirit and in truth, he didn't say that we would worship him. Jesus teaches us to pray to the father and to worship the father as that's what I do.

As I said, read Revelation 3 which I have quoted and let me know what you think of it regarding the worship there, thanks
 

JudgeRightly

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God put Jesus in a place of worship JR but I don't worship Christ Jesus as I worship God. And what did Jesus say that those who truly worshipped God would do? He said that they would worship THE FATHER in Spirit and in truth, he didn't say that we would worship him. Jesus teaches us to pray to the father and to worship the father as that's what I do.

As I said, read Revelation 3 which I have quoted and let me know what you think of it regarding the worship there, thanks
Is Jesus a created being?

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JudgeRightly

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I'm not God JR and I leave all that in Gods hands, I am just flesh.

Anyway what has all that got to do with what I said regarding Romans 1 to Tambora?
I didn't say you were God. I asked if Jesus is a created being.

So Marhig, could you answer my simple question, is Jesus a created being? Yes, no, and I don't know are acceptable answers.

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marhig

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I didn't say you were God. I asked if Jesus is a created being.

So Marhig, could you answer my simple question, is Jesus a created being? Yes, no, and I don't know are acceptable answers.

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How do you know if Christ is or isn't a created being? What I do know is that the flesh of Jesus is created, as for anything in the Spirit that's not for me to know.

So tell me, how do you know whether Christ was or wasn't created by God?
 

Notaclue

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Hi EE,

Is the 'image' of something or someone (anything)....that thing or person itself? :)

Are you your biological father, or your spiritual father? (same person)
Dont you maintain your individual distinction of personality and personhood from your fathers? (assuming both, one who is a human, and one who is your spiritual Father God). You can be spiritually 'united' as one with each other,...but still distinct, yes?

I think you know the answer. No matter one's Christology,...there is still 'God'....and the 'Son' of 'God',...two distinct personalities, 2 entities. Relationally speaking no problem here, God has a 'Son' (also has many 'sons'),.....a Son is a generation, creation, offspring,....the progeny of a Father,....the Father is always the ancestor, the Progenitor of the Son,....the Father of all sons, the Father of all spirits, the God of all flesh, all souls belong to the Universal Father (YHWH), including Jesus :) No problem with a Unitarian view here, you can even be total Arian, mix it up a bit as 'Semi-Arian', spice it up more as a modalist, or go full bore formal as an orthodox Trinitarian.....in all these views....God is always ever distinct from His 'logos', there is the Father and the Son, two distinct personalities, TWO ENTITES :)

These are just differing points of view within One Universal Consciousness. The indivisible ONE remains...no matter how the mind relates, differentiates or divides things up. God is ever One. The Absolute Reality holds as Singular, even if the One is differentiated, dissected, inter-sexed, bi-located, trinitized......Still ONE :)

Only certain religionists who contend for, or have become 'apologists' for any particular view or kind of 'Christology' are investing energy over it, many to dogmatic proportions. And as I've proposed before,...is it necessary? well, in some cases I dont think so. - that all depends on the perspective, belief or opinion you hold, and its affect on your own personal life and religious experience. One some levels were just dealing with 'beliefs', thats all they are. On another level its just a conceptual model or favoring a different or unique philosophical flavor. There is a variety or possible and probable perspectives. From a higher transcendental plane....all these little dots in the aether,...are just 'points' of view. It could all be meaningless apart from those who are giving anything meaning.

Metaphysically speaking....lets explore -

You have the real person or thing, and an 'image' of the original reality being reflected. Using a 'mirror analogy'. You can have any number of images of the original person or thing,....but they would remain 'images' of a sort. Just like we are all made/created in the image and likeness of 'God', we all spring out of the Imagination of the One Universal MIND, that Over-Soul that has birthed us all, giving us form and substance. That would be Our Father-God, or our Father-Mother-God,...the Parental Deity of all things and beings....the Original Fount, the First Source and Center of all reality. - that would be by definition in purest absolute essence, DEITY (without beginning or end, prior to space or time, the truly INFINITE).

A true Monotheistic Unitarian View recognizes this One Singular Personality Source-Energy...this Deity-Presence is ONE, an orginal and universal unity, the original Monad. All multiplicity, dualities, pluarlity of course springs from out of this Singular Fountain and inheres within IT. This One is All There IS and All that will be, since all potentials are ever actualizing from moment to moment....in its Creational-Matrix.

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One".

From The One we came, to The One we return.

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Individualized and universalized,....it is Man who is the image and likeness of YHWH, and that same image is renewed, restored, revivified, perfected in the last or 2nd Adam, the Messiah/Son of Man/Son of God, at least figuratively speaking, but all this is translated 'spiritually' and interpreted thereby. This is actually what is important, man's restoration and renewal of his soul in the Messiah, the 'new man' or 'new creation' (Messiah is the new creational-matrix) as well as the New Jerusalem who is our heavenly mother. In this respect, the Messiah or 'Son of God' archetype is like a 'Mother-Son'. We are born anew from above, in the Spirit....in the Messiah-Son, adopted into the kingdom as inheritors. We thru Jesus' 'anointing' put on 'sonship', for the Lord is the Spirit!

So yes,...the 'image' that is mirrored is important, but more important is the source, substance and form that is being mirrored, then communicated spiritually as all that man can contain, manifest or express of divinity, at any moment in space-time and thru-out eternity. I like to think of this 'community' or 'body of Messiah' as the restored Tabernacle of David in the last day, whose day is NOW at least in seed, substance and form, yet still awaiting full realization. The seed and fruit of David shall blossom and flourish!...and we are His harvest. We are the Messiah-Son!


Prov.11:30The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Rev.2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev.22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book

Rev.22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it (Tree of life).



Peace.
 

JudgeRightly

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How do you know if Christ is or isn't a created being? What I do know is that the flesh of Jesus is created, as for anything in the Spirit that's not for me to know.

So tell me, how do you know whether Christ was or wasn't created by God?
Because the Bible tells us so.

Did you ever think about what the title "Everlasting Father" means? Can someone be a Father if He has no offspring? No. So then to be an Everlasting Father (meaning He has always been and always will be a Father), God must have an eternal Son. The Son of God is Eternal. Who is the Son of God? Jesus.

Meaning Jesus Christ could not be a created being. Yet God tells us that He was alone for eternity past, and that He alone created all things. But Jesus also says that He alone created all things. So which is it, God or Jesus? Why not both? They are both persons of the Godhead.

How can it be that God was alone if He has been a Father for all of eternity past?

John 1:1 explains how. Jesus was with God, and He was God.

You are right to worship Jesus. Not just because God exalted Him, but because Jesus is God, and is worthy of worship.

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marhig

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Because the Bible tells us so.

Did you ever think about what the title "Everlasting Father" means? Can someone be a Father if He has no offspring? No. So then to be an Everlasting Father (meaning He has always been and always will be a Father), God must have an eternal Son. The Son of God is Eternal. Who is the Son of God? Jesus.

Meaning Jesus Christ could not be a created being. Yet God tells us that He was alone for eternity past, and that He alone created all things. But Jesus also says that He alone created all things. So which is it, God or Jesus? Why not both? They are both persons of the Godhead.

How can it be that God was alone if He has been a Father for all of eternity past?

John 1:1 explains how. Jesus was with God, and He was God.

You are right to worship Jesus. Not just because God exalted Him, but because Jesus is God, and is worthy of worship.

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Can you show me the chapters where the Bible tells us so? Thanks
 

God's Truth

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Yeppers.
Those that deny Christ is GOD, have a false Lord, God, Savior; and worship a creation rather than the Creator.

Romans 1:25 KJV
(25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Those who reject Jesus as God the Father, they are going by what the Bible says about Jesus being the Son, they are going by that without the revelation that Jesus is God BECAUSE they are staying true to a man made, or woman made denomination.

They make that mistake just like you do.
 

God's Truth

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If you can just show me the verses that say that Jesus wasn't created then that great, thanks

I am NOT a trinitarian, even though I believe there are three, and I believe Jesus is God.

Jesus' body was created, he is God the Father with a body...before coming to earth, and then after coming to earth in a flesh body.
 

marhig

Well-known member
I am NOT a trinitarian, even though I believe there are three, and I believe Jesus is God.

So how are you not a Trinitarian? You believe in three and that they are one?

Jesus' body was created, he is God the Father with a body...before coming to earth, and then after coming to earth in a flesh body.

He's not God the father with a body, God the father was in his body with his son. Just like if you're born of God, your you with the Spirit of God in you, but you're not God.

Jesus' fleshly body was created yes, but outside of that how are we to know what God did and when? How do we know when the Spirit of anyone was created, only God can know that.

And if Jesus is the father, then how do you explain this?

John 14

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.




I am NOT a trinitarian, even though I believe there are three, and I believe Jesus is God.

Jesus' body was created, he is God the Father with a body...before coming to earth, and then after coming to earth in a flesh body.
 

God's Truth

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So how are you not a Trinitarian? You believe in three and that they are one?
…because trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three DISTINCT/DIFFERENT and SEPARATE persons; and I say they are NEVER EVER separate and different.

He's not God the father with a body, God the father was in his body with his son. Just like if you're born of God, your you with the Spirit of God in you, but you're not God.
All humans have their own spirits…and when we are saved we also receive the Spirit of God; however, Jesus’ Spirit IS the Spirit of God, and it is his only Spirit.

Jesus' fleshly body was created yes, but outside of that how are we to know what God did and when? How do we know when the Spirit of anyone was created, only God can know that.
Our spirits were created when we were conceived, it is how we grow and live. It is how we have life. I have scriptures about that if you are interested.

And if Jesus is the father, then how do you explain this?

John 14

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.*Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?*Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Those scriptures PROVE what I have been saying.
Those scriptures are one of the ways I came to know the truth.
When a person is saved, how many Spirits are they given? ONE Spirit; so how do we get the Father and the Son when we are saved if we are only given one Spirit? I will tell you how, it is because there is only one Spirit and they are the same one Spirit.
 

Jerry Shugart

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If you can just show me the verses that say that Jesus wasn't created then that great, thanks

This verse proves that the Lord Jesus is God so we can know for a fact that He was not created:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

The following passage speaks of us looking for that appearance and the "glory" which we will see will be the Lord Jesus' "glorious body":

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The following verses are also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":

"Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).​

So the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

That is why Paul refers to that glory as belonging to the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior.
 

marhig

Well-known member
This verse proves that the Lord Jesus is God so we can know for a fact that He was not created:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

The following passage speaks of us looking for that appearance and the "glory" which we will see will be the Lord Jesus' "glorious body":

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The following verses are also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":

"Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).​

So the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:

"...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​

That is why Paul refers to that glory as belonging to the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior.

As I've said before, there was no punctuation in the original scriptures, man has added it, so that could just as easily read differently.

And you've missed out something, in the king James version, it says and our saviour Jesus Christ

So it reads like this

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Change the punctuation by moving a comma and it can read like this

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And that verse matches the verse that says we will come and make our abode with you.
 

marhig

Well-known member
…because trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three DISTINCT/DIFFERENT and SEPARATE persons; and I say they are NEVER EVER separate and different.


All humans have their own spirits…and when we are saved we also receive the Spirit of God; however, Jesus’ Spirit IS the Spirit of God, and it is his only Spirit.


Our spirits were created when we were conceived, it is how we grow and live. It is how we have life. I have scriptures about that if you are interested.


Those scriptures PROVE what I have been saying.
Those scriptures are one of the ways I came to know the truth.
When a person is saved, how many Spirits are they given? ONE Spirit; so how do we get the Father and the Son when we are saved if we are only given one Spirit? I will tell you how, it is because there is only one Spirit and they are the same one Spirit.
No they don't at all, you can see clearly that they are separate, Christ isn't the father, the father is in Christ and Christ is manifest within us by the power of the Holy Spirit

How on earth could the father being Jesus have prayed to himself? How could he strengthen himself. Jesus relied totally on God, he didn't ask himself to forgive those who crucified him, and he didn't commend his spirit into the hands of himself, the way you believe isn't right!
 

God's Truth

New member
No they don't at all,

"No they don't at all", who don't do what at all?

you can see clearly that they are separate, Christ isn't the father, the father is in Christ and Christ is manifest within us by the power of the Holy Spirit

The Bible says there is only one Spirit.

You claim there are three different Spirits. Why not just believe the truth that there is only one Spirit?

What will happen if you believe the truth and go against your teachers?

How on earth could the father being Jesus have prayed to himself? How could he strengthen himself. Jesus relied totally on God, he didn't ask himself to forgive those who crucified him, and he didn't commend his spirit into the hands of himself, the way you believe isn't right!

There are three, and God the Father really came as a Man, He did not pretend to come as a Man.
 

God's Truth

New member
Marhig,

Do you believe you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you?

Tell me so that I can continue to speak further with you about this.
 
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