Did Jesus and Paul preach the same thing?

ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

New member
Show where Jesus preached what Paul preached in regard to salvation. Musterion had asked this of GT in another thread. I believe it deserves a thread all its own. This is the list of things Paul preached regarding our salvation. Musty provided it. Can anyone show from what Jesus taught any of these things? You must make your case.

(a) both Jews and Gentiles could now be saved on the same basis of grace through faith

(b) without any works to get or stay saved

(c) completely apart from national Israel

(d) with Jews and Gentiles becoming co-equal members of Christ's Body

(e) with a heavenly (not earthly) destiny,

(f) who are impossible to ever be separated from Him.

GT provided these two verses. Can anyone show how these verses teach anything on that list?
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
Many people miss the point of John 3, especially with all the Calvinists around, and yet Jesus speaks to the distinction between Old and New Covenants pretty clearly, here:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Click to expand...

This idea of "born again" or "born from above" is one that we need to see from Nicodemus' perspective.

You see, election in the Old Covenant was through natural birth. The Old Covenant was adopted for the people of that generation and their children. Thus, one born a Jew was a member of the Old Covenant by birth. And this was Nicodemus' thinking: He already had entrance into the kingdom of heaven because he was born as a part of Israel, God's chosen people.

And Jesus shakes up his world, by saying that he had to be "born again." Clearly Jesus isn't speaking of a literal birth (as Nicodemus asks), but rather Jesus is speaking of a new election for the new covenant.

And Jesus goes on to describe the differences in the election for the covenants, including the fact that you couldn't tell who was "born of the spirit" by looking at them. It wasn't going to be a racial thing, either.

Only when we get to John 3:16 do we see what this new election is, and the new election is "whoever believes." We see the same thing again in John 6:29, 40, 45, and 47. And in John 20:31. What is needed to receive eternal life is faith. One must believe in the one who was sent.

And this is consistent across Jesus' and Paul's teachings.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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Of course,

Galatians 1:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
ClimateSanity said:
Show where Jesus preached what Paul preached in regard to salvation. Musterion had asked this of GT in another thread. I believe it deserves a thread all its own. This is the list of things Paul preached regarding our salvation. Musty provided it. Can anyone show from what Jesus taught any of these things? You must make your case.

(a) both Jews and Gentiles could now be saved on the same basis of grace through faith
Click to expand...
God has always shown Grace (favor) to people of faith.

ClimateSanity said:
(b) without any works to get or stay saved
Click to expand...
Neither Paul nor Jesus taught that.

ClimateSanity said:
(c) completely apart from national Israel
Click to expand...
Neither Paul nor Jesus taught that.

ClimateSanity said:
(d) with Jews and Gentiles becoming co-equal members of Christ's Body
Click to expand...
Jesus did not teach about the salvation of the Gentiles because He came a couple of years prior to the end of the 490 years prophesied for the children of Israel to repent (Daniel 9:24-27)
When that time ran out, Peter was sent to Cornelius (Acts 10:1-11:18).

ClimateSanity said:
(e) with a heavenly (not earthly) destiny,
Click to expand...
Neither Paul nor Jesus taught that.

ClimateSanity said:
(f) who are impossible to ever be separated from Him.
Click to expand...
Neither Paul nor Jesus taught that.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
ClimateSanity said:
Show where Jesus preached what Paul preached in regard to salvation. Musterion had asked this of GT in another thread. I believe it deserves a thread all its own. This is the list of things Paul preached regarding our salvation. Musty provided it. Can anyone show from what Jesus taught any of these things? You must make your case.

(a) both Jews and Gentiles could now be saved on the same basis of grace through faith
Click to expand...

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

(b)without any works to get or stay saved
Click to expand...

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


(c) completely apart from national Israel
Click to expand...

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


(d) with Jews and Gentiles becoming co-equal members of Christ's Body
Click to expand...

Acts 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

(e) with a heavenly (not earthly) destiny,
Click to expand...

John 14:2 |
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

(f) who are impossible to ever be separated from Him.
Click to expand...


John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
Muz,

Are those who died in faith under the old covenant, according to your view, excluded from the Kingdom of God?
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This is better phrased, "Those who died believing in God before the establishing of the New Covenant entered the Kingdom of God." Whether they were under the Old Covenant or not is irrelevant.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Bright Raven said:
Of course,

Galatians 1:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Not a revelation, the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
themuzicman said:
This is better phrased, "Those who died believing in God before the establishing of the New Covenant entered the Kingdom of God." Whether they were under the Old Covenant or not is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

I'd say this guy got in. :)

Luke 2:26
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
What does that mean?
ye must be born again to see the Kingdom sounds like an absolute
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That's because you're ignoring the context. Who is Jesus speaking to? What does "born again" mean to him? What specifically about Nicodemus may make this statement limited to him or to some group like him?

Until you answer those questions, you haven't even begun to understand it.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
themuzicman said:
That's because you're ignoring the context. Who is Jesus speaking to? What does "born again" mean to him? What specifically about Nicodemus may make this statement limited to him or to some group like him?

Until you answer those questions, you haven't even begun to understand it.
Click to expand...

Nicodemus, being a master of Israel, should know he was referring to Ezekiel 37...and resurrection.
Same old Muz...still condescending when others ask questions to try to understand your view.
 
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