Did God die on the cross?

[Zeke]

Of course he did.

When we say HE died we are speaking of a person. It was a person who died.

Cross of flesh, works of flesh being typed as wood hay and stubble caused by ignorance of the Fathers requirements for sons Psalms 40:6. Jesus a state of mind typified in Paul's inner man who delighted in the law but was still among sin but no longer willingly following it.

Luke 22:44, Romans 7:24, every son goes through that showing scripture being fulfilled in each son waking to Christ within them, Ephesians 5:14, Galatians 4:20-30, all of scripture takes place in the heart veiled in bondage till unveiled in freedom.

 

[Caino]

The Son left his mortal shell behind. Its gone. It was just the same kind of carbon based molecular stuff that we are all made of.

 

[Vail Lifted]

Then I must ask you this: Is Jesus a liar? He must be according to your reasoning for this is what He said about Himself:



The same eternal life that the Father has was, at the time those words were spoken by Jesus , existing in the person of Jesus because the verb used in verse 27 is past perfect tense. Notice also that Jesus says the dead, even at that time, would hear His voice. And in truth the dead did hear His voice for raised He Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus from death. Notice also that Jesus combines in Himself the Son of God and the Son of man. His statement is in direct conflict with what you have to say about Him.

lets start with verse 24. John 5:24

Jesus says that whoever hears his word and believes God who sent Jesus has eternal life. That one does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. Jesus speaks of the believer as one who already possesses eternal life and has already passed from death to life.

In the same way, believers are spoken of being in the kingdom of God even though it has not come yet.

Eternal life and entering the kingdom of God become an actual reality when the believers are raised from the dead or translated in a twinkling of an eye.

At the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah were seen in glory speaking with Jesus. Moses had already died and therefore was as some point raised from the dead. Elijah was translated and did not see death. And Jesus was seen in his glory that he will display when he comes in his kingdom.
God speaks of things as though they already are even though they are not yet.

Those who had been raised by Jesus were not raised immortal but at some point died again.

 

[Vail Lifted]

The Son left his mortal shell behind. Its gone. It was just the same kind of carbon based molecular stuff that we are all made of.

It would be incorrect to say that Jesus died if he did not die. To say that he only appeared to die is to say he did not die. To say that Jesus is God, and that God inhabited a mortal shell, is to say that Jesus did not die.

 

[nikolai_42]

I understand the passage differently than you.

Logos can mean a spoken word or words which come from ideas. Ideas are thoughts of the mind. I believe it was God's idea to attribute all things to His son because God was prepared to offer everything He possess to His son by giving of His own spirit without measure to him.

So did mere words have glory with God before the world was?

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:4-5

Is God talking to Himself? Or to His words? The flesh didn't pre-exist, but there was One who clearly did. And that One is clearly not the Father. So if you say HE is a man, then that man pre-existed. The Father is talking to a personality - and that personality had pre-existence. Saying Jesus had Divine attributes is not the same as saying He was God manifest in the flesh - especially when He claims pre-existence at the same time as He carries on a conversation with (or prayer to) the Father. There is distinct identity here.

 

[beloved57]

God didnt die on the cross but a Man who was and is God did, Thats what scripture reveals !

 

[Gary K]

:

lets start with verse 24. John 5:24

Jesus says that whoever hears his word and believes God who sent Jesus has eternal life. That one does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life. Jesus speaks of the believer as one who already possesses eternal life and has already passed from death to life.

In the same way, believers are spoken of being in the kingdom of God even though it has not come yet.

Eternal life and entering the kingdom of God become an actual reality when the believers are raised from the dead or translated in a twinkling of an eye.

At the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah were seen in glory speaking with Jesus. Moses had already died and therefore was as some point raised from the dead. Elijah was translated and did not see death. And Jesus was seen in his glory that he will display when he comes in his kingdom.
God speaks of things as though they already are even though they are not yet.

Those who had been raised by Jesus were not raised immortal but at some point died again.

More deliberate obtuseness. You didn't address a single scripture I quoted and instead just ran the fallacy known as a red herring out as your reply.

1st bolded sentence: What does that have to do with Jesus possessing eternal life within Himself? And, scripture plainly says that whoever believes in Jesus has eternal life.

As to the second sentence I bolded above I say, So? What difference does that make? You say it was the power of the Father that raised them from the dead. According to your reasoning, as Jesus has the same life within Him that the Father does, that should have made Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus rise to immortality but it didn't. Do you really think no one is going to recognize that this is extremely flawed logic? If so, you have very little respect for those with whom you interact.

Stop insulting my intelligence. And stop pretending that you don't clearly understand what I'm saying. Obfuscation never leads to the knowledge of truth and all Bible study, for the Christian, is to be the search for truth. It is readily apparent what you're doing. If you don't think other people see it you're only fooling yourself. As I told Meshak elsewhere, you deserve better than this from yourself. You owe yourself better.

If Jesus is not God, then the following behavior from Jesus is blasphemous towards His own Father.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
[SIZE=+0]36[/SIZE] He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
[SIZE=+0]37[/SIZE] And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
[SIZE=+0]38[/SIZE] And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

The blind man healed by Jesus in this story worshipped Him. If Jesus is not God that is accepting worship that is due only to God and a very serious sin as it is blasphemous to accept worship that belongs only to God. That is the sin that got Lucifer kicked out of heaven. He wanted to be worshiped just as God is. If your position is true Jesus had to have sinned grievously for he didn't repulse that worship but accepted it as His due. That makes Jesus' life and death a failed sacrifice. Faith in Him, according to your logic is vain.

There is so much Biblical evidence that says Jesus is God I find it extremely difficult that anyone who searches for truth can deny Jesus' divinity.

 

[Caino]

The preexistent Son came to earth in the mortal person of Mary's baby.

He allowed the temporary adult body of Joshua Ben Joseph to be killed on the cross.

The Son of God returned, on his own volition, in a form similar to his former mortal appearance.

God doesn't die.

 

[Vail Lifted]

So did mere words have glory with God before the world was?

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:4-5

Is God talking to Himself? Or to His words? The flesh didn't pre-exist, but there was One who clearly did. And that One is clearly not the Father. So if you say HE is a man, then that man pre-existed. The Father is talking to a personality - and that personality had pre-existence. Saying Jesus had Divine attributes is not the same as saying He was God manifest in the flesh - especially when He claims pre-existence at the same time as He carries on a conversation with (or prayer to) the Father. There is distinct identity here.

Why does Jesus say that he has glorified the Father on earth by finishing the works that the Father gave him to do and also asks to be gloried with the Father with the glory he had before the world was?

In verse 1 The son wants the same glory of the Father so that the son may glorify the Father (John 17:1)

The son glorified the Father on earth by finishing the work the Father gave the son to do. But the son had not the glory that is with the Father. And that's the glory he asks for so that he can glorify the Father in another way.

Jesus has a limitless measure of the Spirit of the Father so that he could glorify the Father on earth by being enabled to finish the works the Father sent him to do. But the glory of that Spirit was concealed in human flesh. Therefore, the Spirit had not the same glory that is with the Father. And Jesus, the Spirit, is asking the Father to give Him(the Spirit) the same glory that He (the Spirit) had with the Father before the world was.

 

[Vail Lifted]

:

More deliberate obtuseness. You didn't address a single scripture I quoted and instead just ran the fallacy known as a red herring out as your reply.

Your long wordy posts are boring. I simply tried to address your first comments. I didn't?

Jesus possesses eternal life in the same way believers do. But believers can't possess that life without Jesus. Jesus has the life within himself because it is said that "just as the Father has life within Himself, so has He given the son to have life within himself" also.

Just as the Father raises the dead so too can Jesus.

Can we limit our comments for discussion?

 

[Gary K]

Your long wordy posts are boring. I simply tried to address your first comments. I didn't?

Jesus possesses eternal life in the same way believers do. But believers can't possess that life without Jesus. Jesus has the life within himself because it is said that "just as the Father has life within Himself, so has He given the son to have life within himself" also.

Just as the Father raises the dead so too can Jesus.

Can we limit our comments for discussion?

Stop creating fallacies and I will not comment about them. I desire a real discussion of scripture, and you are not providing that. You point here, there, everywhere except at the scripture I give you. You ignore it entirely.

I'll give you another chance to address John 9:35-38, and explain how your position does not make Jesus a big time sinner who embraced the sin of Lucifer.

 

[Jacob]

Stop creating fallacies and I will not comment about them. I desire a real discussion of scripture, and you are not providing that. You point here, there, everywhere except at the scripture I give you. You ignore it entirely.

I'll give you another chance to address John 9:35-38, and explain how your position does not make Jesus a big time sinner who embraced the sin of Lucifer.

The word Lucifer is found in the Bible from the Latin, but it is not used of Satan.

 

[Lon]

Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no.

"No." It is up to YOU to figure out why. You CAN assume wrongly here. "My" answer 'no' is very clear in my head.

Now do you believe Jesus Christ was both God and Man ?

Simple yes or No. How much simpler can the question be ?

My answer is 'Yes.' John 1:1 "was" and "was with" How? :idunno: Not my problem, my problem isn't to 'figure out' God, but believe Him. Regardless.

 

[beloved57]

lon

My answer is 'Yes.' John 1:1 "was" and "was with" How?:idunno: Not my problem, my problem isn't to 'figure out' God, but believe Him. Regardless.

Exactly. God has revealed it, that settles it !

 

[Gary K]

The word Lucifer is found in the Bible from the Latin, but it is not used of Satan.

Jacob, for what sin did Satan get kicked out of heaven? Why did he choose to be God's enemy?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, for what sin did Satan get kicked out of heaven? Why did he choose to be God's enemy?

I have no idea. Satan took a third of the angels with him. I don't know how to prove even this.

 

[nikolai_42]

Why does Jesus say that he has glorified the Father on earth by finishing the works that the Father gave him to do and also asks to be gloried with the Father with the glory he had before the world was?

In verse 1 The son wants the same glory of the Father so that the son may glorify the Father (John 17:1)

The son glorified the Father on earth by finishing the work the Father gave the son to do. But the son had not the glory that is with the Father. And that's the glory he asks for so that he can glorify the Father in another way.

Jesus has a limitless measure of the Spirit of the Father so that he could glorify the Father on earth by being enabled to finish the works the Father sent him to do. But the glory of that Spirit was concealed in human flesh. Therefore, the Spirit had not the same glory that is with the Father. And Jesus, the Spirit, is asking the Father to give Him(the Spirit) the same glory that He (the Spirit) had with the Father before the world was.

In other words, you are saying that Jesus is just the flesh that was brought into existence 2000 years ago? That the Spirit is what He really is? That's the only way I see you being consistent. But then Jesus has to talk about "Himself" in different ways :

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 16:13-15

The Spirit may be the glory of Christ, but that implies a separation - which you can't have or else Jesus has to become God at some point. That glory is historical (John 17:5) and future (add John 16:14 "...shall glorify..."). But most importantly, here Jesus speaks of Himself separate from the Spirit. Therefore, they all have some sort of independent eternal continuity.

 

[Gary K]

I have no idea. Satan took a third of the angels with him. I don't know how to prove even this.

The Bible ties Lucifer directly to Satan. Satan wants to be worshipped just the way God is worshipped. That's why he rebelled and convinced 1/3 of the angels to agree with him. His selfishness was the beginning of sin.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[SIZE=+0]13[/SIZE] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[SIZE=+0]14[/SIZE] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[SIZE=+0]15[/SIZE] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
[SIZE=+0]16[/SIZE] They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Notice that Lucifer once lived in heaven, but no longer does. Notice also his megalomania, i.e. his supreme selfishness. He thought he could take the place of God and should be worshipped just as God is. He wanted to be the ruler of the universe. He fits the description of Satan to a tee.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[SIZE=+0]13[/SIZE] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.^*n4*n5*n6
[SIZE=+0]14[/SIZE] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[SIZE=+0]15[/SIZE] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Now, think before you claim this last set of verses is literally referring to the king of Tyrus. Did the human king of Tyrus ever enter the garden of Eden? It was taken from the earth before the flood so there is no way a human being who lived more than a thousand years later could have been there. Also notice that God says he was "perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created". That cannot be said about any sinful man. No person on this earth, other than Adam and Even, has been born/created perfect and then become sinful afterward. Also God is saying that the person He is describing was at one time the covering cherub (angel). That tells me the person God is talking about once lived in the very presence of God. That cannot be a sinful man for no sinful human being can see God and live. There is only one person that these two passages of scripture fit to a tee, and that is the devil.

 

[Jacob]

The Bible ties Lucifer directly to Satan. Satan wants to be worshipped just the way God is worshipped. That's why he rebelled and convinced 1/3 of the angels to agree with him. His selfishness was the beginning of sin.



Notice that Lucifer once lived in heaven, but no longer does. Notice also his megalomania, i.e. his supreme selfishness. He thought he could take the place of God and should be worshipped just as God is. He wanted to be the ruler of the universe. He fits the description of Satan to a tee.



Now, think before you claim this last set of verses is literally referring to the king of Tyrus. Did the human king of Tyrus ever enter the garden of Eden? It was taken from the earth before the flood so there is no way a human being who lived more than a thousand years later could have been there. Also notice that God says he was "perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created". That cannot be said about any sinful man. No person on this earth, other than Adam and Even, has been born/created perfect and then become sinful afterward. Also God is saying that the person He is describing was at one time the covering cherub (angel). That tells me the person God is talking about once lived in the very presence of God. That cannot be a sinful man for no sinful human being can see God and live. There is only one person that these two passages of scripture fit to a tee, and that is the devil.

These portions are talking about the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre respectfully. It is poetry, not referring to Satan. The word Lucifer has a definition, but it does not refer to Satan.

 

[Gary K]

These portions are talking about the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre respectfully. It is poetry, not referring to Satan. The word Lucifer has a definition, but it does not refer to Satan.

Jacob,

Those passages simply cannot refer to any human being. Period. No human being fits those descriptions. To explain them away as just poetic ramblings is to denigrate scripture. Why?

2Timothy 3:16 [FONT=&quot][/FONT]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SIZE=+0]17[/SIZE] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

:

That means the verses I gave you are a valid source to use for doctrine and are not just some poetic ramblings.