ECT Demonic activity (or plain insanity) caught on video at charismatic church

andyc

New member
I'm sure you believe you are going by the Scripture with that.

But I submit to you that you are not.

Because, as the following will show - tongues is a Dispensational issue.

Which is the issue of things as defined by and within their respective, or due economy, administration, stewardship, or season.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Said seasons defining the who, what, when, where, why, and how of a phenomena like, in this case, that of tongues.

Which is why Paul had found himself having to remind the ever carnal Corinthians of ...

(See the Spoiler below)

Spoiler

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

"In the Law it is written"?

And "tongues are for a sign not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:"?

Hunh?

Well, what do we now know - from the Scripture ITSELF - about such things?

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

What else?

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Okay, so...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

In other words, Israel was now up a creek - with the Gentiles - and without a paddle.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

What would become of THEIR signs, for their disobedience, whenever that was the case?

Deuteronomy 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Result?

Psalms 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long. 74:10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? 74:11 Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom.

THAT is the context of...

14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

And what had been Prophesied AGAINST Israel...

14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

There is much more to this study - much more - but its summary is this...

Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

There it is - tongues for a sign...to unbelieving Jews...

11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

There it is...

11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

There it is again...

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Tongues and those other miraculous wonders among those Gentiles way back then had been for a sign unto both believing and Unbelieving Israel that the salvation of God had ended up with the Gentiles.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

There it is again.

15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

And there it is again...

15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And there it is...again.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg, and on just that much of all that 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about...

Or as that Apostle OF THE GENTILES had summarized all that...

Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

This infomercial has been brought you by...

Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.


In memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead

Paul talks about the uninformed.
If everyone speaks in tongues, the uninformed will thin we're all mad.
Everyone can speak in tongues, but not for the good of the uninformed.
 

Danoh

New member
Sorry Danoh but the verses you quoted have nothing to do with your responding comment.

Well that settles that - you completely shut everyone up with all that Scripture - and that within BOTH its NEAR and REMOTE context - that you have NOT been providing. :chuckle:

All the more reason to thank God for Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
 

andyc

New member
Well that settles that - you completely shut everyone up with all that Scripture - and that within BOTH its NEAR and REMOTE context - that you have NOT been providing. :chuckle:

All the more reason to thank God for Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Everyone's thankful Romans 5.
 

andyc

New member
Look.

I know most here are Cessationists, but you have no argument from scripture. You know you don't.
I've put you mads through the one and one, and you were pitiful.

The problem is that you do not like what scripture says about tongues. I can't help that, but until you have an argument from scripture, I'll be waiting :)
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
When were you sealed with the Holy Spirit?
Did GOD do that?

Do you pray?
Why?
HTTP3JzMjc5LnBic3JjLmNvbS9hbGJ1bXMva2sxNDMvZmFlaW5pMS90aDFzbTExMklrbm93ZGVzay5naWZjiaYzIwMAloglog.gif



I was.
Yes.

I do.
Communication.
 

Danoh

New member
Look.

I know most here are Cessationists, but you have no argument from scripture. You know you don't.
I've put you mads through the one and one, and you were pitiful.

The problem is that you do not like what scripture says about tongues. I can't help that, but until you have an argument from scripture, I'll be waiting :)

Nope.

Liking or not liking tongues, or what have you, has nothing to do with it.

That's just you going by what you read into another's words - which is the very basis of the "Pentecostal" movement.

I laid out the context of tongues.

You had nothing to say, other than your usual own word on what's what.

That is where you are.

Personally, I am fine with that - that is where you are.

You need that kind of thing.

And obviously, for what you have concluded it is supposed to mean.

Never mind how Unspiritual, how Carnal: the Corinthians had been.

But that is what you appear to need.

That is where you are.

The more important question for me being what is the basis for your salvation.

That is what I focus more on - is this person saved but confused, or both lost and confused?

It is clear in Scripture that the lost, and the lost and confused are both lost.

And that the saved but confused are saved.

In the end, that is the issue for me.

Thus my "welcome back, Andy; hope all is well for you. Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead."

If you are lost than that much towards you.

If you are however saved, but confused, well then add Romans 14:5 towards you, to that Romans 5: 6-8 towards you.

THIS is what "the gospel of the GRACE of God" looks like in real-time beyond both merely rambling on about it, and or attempting to shove it down another's throat or its time to spit on them.

So there is my concern, Andy, are you lost and confused, or saved but confused?

More importantly, from Scripture ITSELF and SPECIFICALLY - WHAT are basing your salvation on?

Til I am clear on that as to you - Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.
 

musterion

Well-known member
I know of two mid Acts teachers, no doubt there are more, who insist God does no intervention today apart from people being saved and grown into the image of Christ. They insist He does not answer prayers. One of them is Jordan. The other is McLean. I've looked into their teachings and I have yet to see them make a clear case from Pauline Scripture why God would not, if and as He chooses, intervene in the life of believers. The closest I've seen anyone get is McLean saying basically "that's Kingdom." Uhhhh...okee dokee.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
What's the question?

If Satan can still operate in the world, why can't God? If you believe that people can do supernatural things through demonic activity, then why does your dispensationalism prevent you from believing that people can do supernatural things through the Spirit of God?
 

musterion

Well-known member
If Satan can still operate in the world, why can't God? If you believe that people can do supernatural things through demonic activity, then why does your dispensationalism prevent you from believing that people can do supernatural things through the Spirit of God?

I don't want to be rude but you don't even understand what we believe, so your question doesn't make sense. I will say this. This issue is only about the purpose for the signs and wonders as seen in the book of Acts.
 

Danoh

New member
I know of two mid Acts teachers, no doubt there are more, who insist God does no intervention today apart from people being saved and grown into the image of Christ. They insist He does not answer prayers. One of them is Jordan. The other is McLean. I've looked into their teachings and I have yet to see them make a clear case from Pauline Scripture why God would not, if and as He chooses, intervene in the life of believers. The closest I've seen anyone get is McLean saying basically "that's Kingdom." Uhhhh...okee dokee.

You continue to amuse, Musti. :chuckle:

Over the years, I have personally run across a good 70 or 80 plus Mid-Acts Based Pastor-Student-Teachers who are Cessationist.

The balance of my post is found in the following...

Spoiler

The "Student" part there referring to the fact that such consider themselves life-long students of the Word, not just Pastor-Teachers.

And many of them have preferred being addressed by their first names.

Not a one of them has been insistent about their Cessationist view (that's just you - ever projecting your "black or white, my way or the highway" on others).

And not a one of them has taught on it what you have hereinabove misrepresented their teaching to be.

That's just you being you - reading a thing into another's words, followed by your running with it as the reality.

You are infamous all over TOL for those two practices.

Heck, as usual, you even lost your way on a simple question asked of you, this time around, by User Name.

Ya crack me up - ya really do. :chuckle:

And the thing to do is to be so well studied out Mid-Acts/Mystery Wise In General, that when anyone - no matter who they might be - asserts a thing, one is easily able to know their Scripturally Dispensational Basis before such even lay it all out.

The fact is that such things are Advanced Mid-Acts / Mystery understandings.

Meaning, if one finds oneself at odds with the findings of such often much more advanced individuals - given that that is what their very every day profession itself is as Pastor - Student -Teachers - the thing to do is to actually hear such out THROUGHLY, not jump the gun, as you and some of your pals on here have often demonstrated you have actually done, repeatedly, with anyone who points out the various holes in one or another of some...of your assertions.

But one finds Pastor-Student-Teachers who hold a Cessationist view within every major Mid-Acts group out there.

In one case, one Mid-Acts Based Pastor-Student-Teacher had held it. His successor does not.

In another case, one Mid-Acts Base. Pastor-Student-Teacher did not hold to it. His successor does.

And always the issue is one and the same - individual differences in both level of understanding in general, and or in overall study approach.

Having heard them each on many a subject, it is obvious to me why the one holds the one view, the other does not.

The one was far and away much more advanced in their understanding of many, many things and in approach, the other was not.

Take this how you each will, for you each will anyway, but sometime ago, while listening to one of the more advanced Pastor-Student-Teachers within Mid-Acts out there, I was able to understand a thing correctly that I had not been clear until I heard him teach it incorrectly.

That's right - clarity from an incorrect assertion.

And I am sure I am not alone in that kind of moment.

Take Andyc, as an example of all that I have been going on about in this long winded post.

As Mid-Acts Dispys, each our basic issue with Andyc's views is one based on this exact kind of a thing - we're each way much more advanced in our understanding of many a Dispensational area than he has yet demonstrated being on any, the entire time he has been posting on TOL.

I doubt he even knows that Pentecostalism is actually an offshoot of Acts 2 Dispensationalism.

Which is why Reformed Theology does not hold to it either.

It is what it is. We are each where we are in each our respective understanding of one thing or another...at any given moment in time.

Nevertheless, Romans 14: 5 - in memory of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

That, and the ever hoped for, but just as often ever failed expectation of a Proverbs 27:17 moment, with just about every supposed Acts 17: 11, 12 "MAD" on TOL.
 

Danoh

New member
I don't want to be rude but you don't even understand what we believe, so your question doesn't make sense. I will say this. This issue is only about the purpose for the signs and wonders as seen in the book of Acts.

Exactly my very long winded point...to you.

Rom. 14:5; 5: 6-8.
 
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andyc

New member
Nope.

Liking or not liking tongues, or what have you, has nothing to do with it.

That's just you going by what you read into another's words - which is the very basis of the "Pentecostal" movement.

I laid out the context of tongues.

You had nothing to say, other than your usual own word on what's what.

That is where you are.

Personally, I am fine with that - that is where you are.

You need that kind of thing.

And obviously, for what you have concluded it is supposed to mean.

Never mind how Unspiritual, how Carnal: the Corinthians had been.

But that is what you appear to need.

That is where you are.

The more important question for me being what is the basis for your salvation.

That is what I focus more on - is this person saved but confused, or both lost and confused?

It is clear in Scripture that the lost, and the lost and confused are both lost.

And that the saved but confused are saved.

In the end, that is the issue for me.

Thus my "welcome back, Andy; hope all is well for you. Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead."

If you are lost than that much towards you.

If you are however saved, but confused, well then add Romans 14:5 towards you, to that Romans 5: 6-8 towards you.

THIS is what "the gospel of the GRACE of God" looks like in real-time beyond both merely rambling on about it, and or attempting to shove it down another's throat or its time to spit on them.

So there is my concern, Andy, are you lost and confused, or saved but confused?

More importantly, from Scripture ITSELF and SPECIFICALLY - WHAT are basing your salvation on?

Til I am clear on that as to you - Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

Nope. There is nothing in scripture to support cessationism. If you feel you've presented a decent case, point me in that direction.
The one on one I mentioned covered most of the usual objections.
 

andyc

New member
I don't want to be rude but you don't even understand what we believe, so your question doesn't make sense. I will say this. This issue is only about the purpose for the signs and wonders as seen in the book of Acts.

He actually made a valid point. If you think the devil can duplicate something praiseworthy, why would God not want to do it himself today?
I know why you think this way, it's because faith is virtuous, and mad has an agenda to deflect all virtuousness to Christ alone as an excuse not to be accountable.
 

Danoh

New member
He actually made a valid point. If you think the devil can duplicate something praiseworthy, why would God not want to do it himself today?
I know why you think this way, it's because faith is virtuous, and mad has an agenda to deflect all virtuousness to Christ alone as an excuse not to be accountable.

In other words - as Musti put it - "you don't even understand what we believe."

I challenge you to find this accountability error you are asserting any MAD supposedly holds to, even in the first ten minutes of this video study "Shall We Continue In Sin That Grace May Abound?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IM8KmnXAhY&app=desktop

Nevertheless, Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya.
 

musterion

Well-known member
He actually made a valid point. If you think the devil can duplicate something praiseworthy, why would God not want to do it himself today?

I don't know how much User Name knows or doesn't know but if you knew as much about MAD as you claim to know, you wouldn't have even needed to ask.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Watch to the end. I never heard of this woman before but this is as bad an example of the old video of demonic Hagin laughing, hissing and zapping people into falling down and convulsing.


Clearly some of the people in the crowd figure this is all hokum but others have fully bought into it.

Now balance that against this glowing report, from Wikipedia (probably written by Baker's staff):



Yet this is from her statement of faith...



Notice how faith and regeneration are made separate? There's a reason for that:



In other words: no tongues, no saved. False prophetess, false gospel.

A perfect example of "Lord, Lord, did we not...?"

L.A. with "Touch not God's anointed" in 3...2...

Most certainly, people had misinterpreted scripture and abused the truths of God's word.

God had the apostle Paul reprove the Corinthians for the misuses and abuses of speaking in tongues

There will be people who will mock what is genuine with their foolishness.

Speaking in tongues is from God, as is marriage, but abuses in a marriage are not God's design but man's errors

Likewise speaking in tongues is God's design, but the carnal man introduces error and mocks it.

Should Christians refuse to marry simply because some marriages are abusive?

Do the things of God how God instructs to do them.
 
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