ECT Demonic activity (or plain insanity) caught on video at charismatic church

[musterion]

If a church is not teaching the word, making disciples, sending out and or supporting missionaries, affecting their neighbourhood for Christ etc, all the rolling around the floor is meaningless.

Is the opposite true?

What if a church is indeed doing (or appearing to do) all of that? Would that verify the rolling around on the ground, the screaming as if agonized by something invisible, etc, as of God?

You've been very polite in this exchange and I appreciate it but I still have to ask you for the OBJECTIVE standard by which these things can be tested and verified/rejected, because you haven't provided one yet.

 

[Danoh]

It's obvious.

If the experience does nothing for the believer except give them goosebumps, it's irrelevant.
I know someone who was slain on the floor for hours, and this was a very straight laced person who wouldn't put up with emotional nonsense.
I was intrigued what was happening to him all that time, so I asked him, and he responded saying that God was dealing with him about unforgiveness towards a previous minister.

Respectfully, Andy, the problem with what you are asserting there is that you are relating a standard of "objectivity" that those who subscribe to those kinds of experiences as being "of God" hold to as THEIR standard.

But you are dealing with people on here who do not hold to any aspect of that as our standard as a measure of "objectivity."

Which leaves it on you to prove - through the Scripture - that your standard is Scripturally sound.

Or as one Prophet both sides on here can safely trust on such things had put this that we are pointing out to you..

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[andyc]

That's a subjective test, not an objective one. Besides, what does "does nothing except goosebumps" mean? What more than, or other than, goosebumps would be evidence of true signs and wonders from God?



The anecdotal is not a subjective test of validity. Your friend may well have been deceived by the demonic, or by himself. You can't know.

The enemy does not expose unforgiveness, he promotes it.

 

[andyc]

Is the opposite true?

What if a church is indeed doing (or appearing to do) all of that? Would that verify the rolling around on the ground, the screaming as if agonized by something invisible, etc, as of God?

You've been very polite in this exchange and I appreciate it but I still have to ask you for the OBJECTIVE standard by which these things can be tested and verified/rejected, because you haven't provided one yet.

We are emotional beings, and those emotions get touched by God on occasions. We are not all androids.

 

[andyc]

Respectfully, Andy, the problem with what you are asserting there is that you are relating a standard of "objectivity" that those who subscribe to those kinds of experiences as being "of God" hold to as THEIR standard.

But you are dealing with people on here who do not hold to any aspect of that as our standard as a measure of "objectivity."

Which leaves it on you to prove - through the Scripture - that your standard is Scripturally sound.

Or as one Prophet both sides on here can safely trust on such things had put this that we are pointing out to you..

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

2 Corinthians 5:13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you.

Which means there are times when it will appear to people we are beside ourselves, which suggests there are experiences that go beyond rational thought.

 

[musterion]

The enemy does not expose unforgiveness, he promotes it.

What unforgiveness?

 

[Danoh]

The enemy does not expose unforgiveness, he promotes it.

Again - where is the Scripture such an assertion is supposedly not only based on, but in complete absence of any Scripture that might assert otherwise?

Nevertheless, Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[musterion]

2 Corinthians 5:13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you.

Which means there are times when it will appear to people we are beside ourselves, which suggests there are experiences that go beyond rational thought.

1 Cor 14:19, 14:40 refute what you're implying.

 

[Danoh]

What unforgiveness?

Where he said "and he responded saying that God was dealing with him about unforgiveness towards a previous minister."

God was supposedly exposing the guy's failure to forgive a previous minister.

Contrary to...

The assertion of Rom. 5: 6-8 - as to Christ - in each our stead.

 

[andyc]

1 Cor 14:19, 14:40 refute what you're implying.

You're forgetting about being conscious of unbelievers.

 

[andyc]

Where he said "and he responded saying that God was dealing with him about unforgiveness towards a previous minister."

God was supposedly exposing the guy's failure to forgive a previous minister.

Contrary to...

The assertion of Rom. 5: 6-8 - as to Christ - in each our stead.

People can be forgiven of all sin, but unforgiveness can hold a person back. Unforgiveness is a condition of the heart, and therefore requires an inner work of God to expose and deal with it.

 

[Danoh]

People can be forgiven of all sin, but unforgiveness can hold a person back. Unforgiveness is a condition of the heart, and therefore requires an inner work of God to expose and deal with it.

And the Scripture every bit of that is supposedly based on - and absent of contradiction by any other Scripture?

Andy, you are dealing with people on here who know their Bible, more or less.

You are not having a conversation with Charismatics.

We're talkin "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture?" Gal. 4:30.

The Scripture IS "our conversation."

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Nevertheless - Rom. 5: 6-8 towards you.

 

[musterion]

You're forgetting about being conscious of unbelievers.

So there's no objective standard for a charismatic to tell true experiences from false. Got it, thanks for confirming.

 

[andyc]

So there's no objective standard for a charismatic to tell true experiences from false. Got it, thanks for confirming.

How can there be a standard in how people respond in the flesh to a spiritual experience?
We're talking about a spiritual relationship here, that is deeper than a human relationship. When a man and woman comes together there is an experience born out of relationship, but there is no right and wrong way to respond. People are different.
Some people like to stand and raise their hands when they worship, and others like to sit quietly. Some like to dance, and others don't.
We are emotional beings, and we all react differently. You shouldn't get hung up on things like this.
If someone get's excited and runs around the church because they got a revelation in their spirit, are you gonna pour cold water over them?

 

[User Name]

Yeah, people are hungry for some kind of 'supernatural' experience. They get hit with the serpent power which is touted as 'Holy Spirit' and they think it's from GOD.
GOD is not the author of confusion!

You already know that I disagree with "legit experience" on dispensational grounds

If Satan can still operate in the world, why can't God?

 

[steko]

If Satan can still operate in the world, why can't God?

He can and does.

 

[User Name]

He can and does.

I guess my question was more for musterion:

You already know that I disagree with "legit experience" on dispensational grounds...

 

[Danoh]

You're forgetting about being conscious of unbelievers.

I'm sure you believe you are going by the Scripture with that.

But I submit to you that you are not.

Because, as the following will show - tongues is a Dispensational issue.

Which is the issue of things as defined by and within their respective, or due economy, administration, stewardship, or season.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Said seasons defining the who, what, when, where, why, and how of a phenomena like, in this case, that of tongues.

Which is why Paul had found himself having to remind the ever carnal Corinthians of ...

(See the Spoiler below)

Spoiler

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

"In the Law it is written"?

And "tongues are for a sign not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:"?

Hunh?

Well, what do we now know - from the Scripture ITSELF - about such things?

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

What else?

Romans 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Okay, so...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

In other words, Israel was now up a creek - with the Gentiles - and without a paddle.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

What would become of THEIR signs, for their disobedience, whenever that was the case?

Deuteronomy 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.

Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Result?

Psalms 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long. 74:10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever? 74:11 Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom.

THAT is the context of...

14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

And what had been Prophesied AGAINST Israel...

14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the LORD. 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

There is much more to this study - much more - but its summary is this...

Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

There it is - tongues for a sign...to unbelieving Jews...

11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

There it is...

11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

There it is again...

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Tongues and those other miraculous wonders among those Gentiles way back then had been for a sign unto both believing and Unbelieving Israel that the salvation of God had ended up with the Gentiles.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

There it is again.

15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

And there it is again...

15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

And there it is...again.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg, and on just that much of all that 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about...

Or as that Apostle OF THE GENTILES had summarized all that...

Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

This infomercial has been brought you by...

Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

In memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead

 

[Danoh]

He can and does.

I beg to differ.

For that is a Things That Differ issue.

The only thing left in operation now, this side of "that which is perfect" (fufilled, or filled full, or completed Canon of Scripture with the full revelation of the Mystery in written form) is "the course of this world" unleashed into this world, back in Genesis 3; which is the issue of the "Yea, hath God said" of "the children of" Adam's "disobedience" going by their own inclinations over that of "Nevertheless, what faith the Scripture?"

The course of this world being the following SELF-deceiving reasoning...

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is not this...which is Dispensational...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But this, which is also a Dispensational issue...

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards you, steko, given our different understanding on this - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[andyc]

I beg to differ.

For that is a Things That Differ issue.

The only thing left in operation now, this side of "that which is perfect" (fufilled, or filled full, or completed Canon of Scripture with the full revelation of the Mystery in written form) is "the course of this world" unleashed into this world, back in Genesis 3; which is the issue of the "Yea, hath God said" of "the children of" Adam's "disobedience" going by their own inclinations over that of "Nevertheless, what faith the Scripture?"

The course of this world being the following SELF-deceiving reasoning...

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

It is not this...which is Dispensational...

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But this, which is also a Dispensational issue...

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards you, steko, given our different understanding on this - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Sorry Danoh but the verses you quoted have nothing to do with your responding comment.