creation vs evolution

Greg Jennings

New member
"while very few geologists believe the Colorado meandered around and carved the Grand Canyon over millions of years anymore, that view is still found in most 9th grade texts." --Morris, ICR

Perhaps he means that in addition to the carving of the river into the rock, the rock was uplifted through perfectly understood geological processes such as buoyant rise, which essentially doubled the rate and magnitude of the canyon being carved.

If he doesn't mean that, then he's lying, as that's the accepted conclusion according to the vast majority of geoscientists. Personally, I wouldn't be shocked by a fib from ICR
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Perhaps he means that in addition to the carving of the river into the rock, the rock was uplifted through perfectly understood geological processes such as buoyant rise, which essentially doubled the rate and magnitude of the canyon being carved.

If he doesn't mean that, then he's lying, as that's the accepted conclusion according to the vast majority of geoscientists. Personally, I wouldn't be shocked by a fib from ICR




The point of agreement he was drawing out was that there are several sedimentary slurry layers on top of the bedrock. They were deposited and washed out by movement of water that dwarf today's Colorado in size and tapered off. Now for the disagreement: in the Biblical view, these would have taken place rapidly, and the tapering off would match the ante-diluvian model, as is found in many places around the world.
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
The point of agreement he was drawing out was that there are several sedimentary slurry layers on top of the bedrock. They were deposited and washed out by movement of water that dwarf today's Colorado in size and tapered off. Now for the disagreement: in the Biblical view, these would have taken place rapidly, and the tapering off would match the ante-diluvian model, as is found in many places around the world.
Define "sedimentary slurry"
 

Greg Jennings

New member
The point of agreement he was drawing out was that there are several sedimentary slurry layers on top of the bedrock. They were deposited and washed out by movement of water that dwarf today's Colorado in size and tapered off. Now for the disagreement: in the Biblical view, these would have taken place rapidly, and the tapering off would match the ante-diluvian model, as is found in many places around the world.

I'm afraid I'll need some documentation for your slurry claims. It's nothing personal, I just like to be able to critically examine so-called evidence
 

6days

New member
Dr. Silvestru (died a few years ago) has his doctorate from Europe somewhere. He has material out there, even video presentations of the same as his papers, on catastrophic plate tectonics.
He died? You might be thinking of someone else? Emil had a stroke a few years ago. He was a geologist from Romania with a specialty in caves... a real cave man.
 

Stuu

New member
All science can claim is hypothesis and theories, ie, guesses, both educated and uneducated until they can prove or disprove that their hypotheses, ie, guesses and theories, ie, somewhat more educated guesses.
No. Science can disprove only. When that has been done exhaustively, usually somewhat competitively, then you are left with theory, the explanation for the evidence that is not contradicted by any of the evidence.

Science has not provided any experimental evidence that evolution is possible.
Science only disproves. But that is why scientific theories are high-quality knowledge. They have been robustly tested. But all the same, they are provisional on the uncovering of further evidence to the contrary.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Science is propounding that random occurrences in nature was the force that caused the evolution of lifeless chemicals to become living beings with intelligence.

What lab experiment has proven that?
No. There is no theory of abiogenesis. Next, there is a theory of evolution by natural selection that completely explains life from the first population of a living species, whatever it was exactly, all the way to modern living species.

That has a random element to it, random mutation of genetic material, and a non-random element, which is natural selection. Those of a species which are fittest for survival in their environment will be more likely to reproduce, so there will be slow changes in most species over time.

Of course some species don't change very much because their environments don't change very much. The change is slow, over the course of hundreds of thousands of years to millions of years, and the history of doing laboratory experiments is only at best a couple of hundreds of years long. Of course the laboratory is the place where most analysis of evidence takes place, so all the lab experiments in palaeontology, comparative DNA analysis, geology and isochron dating all take place in the laboratory.

And evolution has been observed in bacteria in several different ways, from the bacteria that adapted to feeding on organic chemicals that don't occur naturally, to the recent news that an antibiotic-resistant strain of gonorrhoea has developed resistance to the last-use cephalosporin antibiotics and are becoming untreatable. That's evolution demonstrated in the laboratory, and it's exactly as Darwin predicted. In fact, everything in biology is.

In a lab you have the advantage that you could push the "evolution" of lifeless matter into becoming a living organism. All I am asking is that you show that science can make kittens out of tadpoles. That should be easy for science compared to us ignorant savages who believe in God and His words.
I agree that people who believe in gods are more often ignorant of science, especially in the US.

Stuart
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Interesting position STuu except for this observation:
"While few geologists believe the Colorado as is made the Grand Canyon as is, the theory is still in most 9th grade texts that we surveyed." --Dr. Morris, ICR
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I wouldn't trust any lab work of geology because of the disproof principle. For what it is worth, I don't yet even trust the 4KYA date of the recent mammoth under the U of O stadium, because the majority of dating about the mass-dying of mammoths and of the collapse of Lakes Missoula and Morse, and the beginning of the undercutting of Niagara has been 9KYA. I don't trust it because it is from a 'lab' and was provided within a week. There are etymological reasons why the Biblical record can go back as far as 9KYA as well. The Mayan record has about 1750 years from creation to global deluge.

As for other disproof, the Farrellian principle discredits a lot of spontaneous generation. this is also documented in THE PRIVILEGED PLANET with its several screens of zeros demonstrating the odds of 'Goldilocks' conditions needed, ruining many pet uniformitarian theories.
 

Stuu

New member
Interesting position STuu except for this observation:
"While few geologists believe the Colorado as is made the Grand Canyon as is, the theory is still in most 9th grade texts that we surveyed." --Dr. Morris, ICR
Do you have a reference for that quote? I can't find it, and it doesn't make grammatical sense to me.

The Colorado River has taken somewhere between 70 million years and 6 million years to carve a mile-deep canyon. As has been pointed out already, uplift of the land beginning about 65 million years ago has made the river steeper in its fall and so sped up the rate of erosion.

A relevant Nature paper, the one cited first in the Holy Wikipedia article has this abstract:


The timing of formation of the Grand Canyon, USA, is vigorously debated. In one view, most of the canyon was carved by the Colorado River relatively recently, in the past 5–6 million years. Alternatively, the Grand Canyon could have been cut by precursor rivers in the same location and to within about 200 m of its modern depth as early as 70–55 million years ago. Here we investigate the time of formation of four out of five segments of the Grand Canyon, using apatite fission-track dating, track-length measurements and apatite helium dating: if any segment is young, the old canyon hypothesis is falsified. We reconstruct the thermal histories of samples taken from the modern canyon base and the adjacent canyon rim 1,500 m above, to constrain when the rocks cooled as a result of canyon incision. We find that two of the three middle segments, the Hurricane segment and the Eastern Grand Canyon, formed between 70 and 50 million years ago and between 25 and 15 million years ago, respectively. However, the two end segments, the Marble Canyon and the Westernmost Grand Canyon, are both young and were carved in the past 5–6 million years. Thus, although parts of the canyon are old, we conclude that the integration of the Colorado River through older palaeocanyons carved the Grand Canyon, beginning 5–6 million years ago.



So it seems to depend on which bit of canyon you are talking about. As I read it, the final carving that has joined up much older carving is a few million years old.

Regarding what John Morris appears to have written on the IRC website about the Grand Canyon, his absurd claim about fossils alone disqualifies him from being taken seriously by anyone.

Stuart
 
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