Creation vs. Evolution

[TheDuke]

Hello?..... Anybody home? Jose...the argument from Duke was that mutations don't destroy. It seems you wish to move the goalposts rather than admit a fellow evolutionist doesn't understand science. Yes, some mutations have a beneficial outcome but that wasn't the argument.

Excellent, so you do admit to beneficial mutations, how marvelous. Because reading all your other posts, one could easily reach the conclusion that "Mutations destroy".

I'm quite sure that Jose and I have little disagreement, for instance I bet both of us are absolutely convinced that you would not be able to even properly define what a mutation is.

Loss of information again is the opposite of what evolutionism needs

Cool, 2 wrong statements in a single sentence: your efficiency is cause for envy.

Our genome is crumbling at a much higher rate than selection can keep up with. Geneticists are concerned about high mutational burden..... Not a single geneticist thinks that mutations with a beneficial outcome is going to save the human race.

The evidence is consistent with God's Word. We were "wonderfully made" but live in a fallen world where death, pain, and suffering exist. As Christians we look forward to that time when He shall wipe every tear, and death no longer exists."

Unintelligible, incongruent babble coupled with a burning desire for the end of the world....
And you wonder why some people consider christianity a death cult :devil:

 

[TheDuke]

Hello and welcome to the discussion, H&F.

Your god is supposed to be omniscient, don't tell me he's somehow not responsible for our fate.

A god who creates man with free will (including the ability to sin and do evil) is not logically impossible.

You may think that any god who creates man must then take responsibility for man's fate. But a god powerful enough to create could create a being who is responsible for himself.

If God managed your fate you would not be a free being. God chose to make men free. Your fate largely depends on choices you make.
God created man and God created choices and God gave man the ability to make choices which have consequences.

I believe you slightly misunderstood my statement above. I'm not talking about a person's fate, but about our collective fate ever since the biblical event that you dub "the fall".

Now, the topics you've addressed fall into 2 categories, I hope you'll agree:
1) philosophical:
- What is "free will"?
- Do we have it? Under which circumstances?

2) theological:
- Were we given free will (i.e. verse reference)
- How much does God interfere?

If you're interested in a genuine conversation, feel free to post your opinion and answer to these questions.

TheDuke: Hey god, your supposed to be omniscient, don't tell me your not somehow responsible for my fate.

God (Dut 30:19):
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

I'll have to rely on your help in interpreting scripture. It would be nice to know the context of this verse.
"[God has] set before [us] life and death" - how does this work, if death is inevitable?
"blessings and curses" - are those controlled by god?

 

[Jose Fly]

Yes, some mutations have a beneficial outcome but that wasn't the argument

Glad we agree that mutation increasing fitness levels is an observed fact.

"...even so called "beneficial" mutations usually, and possibly always are a result of a mutation destroying pre-existing genetic. For example a mutation could destroy the specificity of an enzyme, allowing a beneficial outcome. Loss of information again is the opposite of what evolutionism needs.

Since that's not what occurred in the example I provided, the above isn't relevant.

 

[Jose Fly]

I find it amusing that things like the Milano protein mutation are somehow used as proof of Macroevolution.

Who did that, and where?

 

[Yorzhik]

Chalk and Cheese.
Your misuse of Shannon information was just a ploy and obfuscation since it applies to where degradation in transmission quality is an expected and built in feature of the system itself, such as in telecommunications systems. (Shannon worked for the Bell Telephone Company)

Genetic transcription is pretty much the opposite since it is built upon an almost total fidelity and accuracy while telecoms equipment transmission losses have been a well understood feature long before Shannon.

Shannon Theory is a remedy, correction and a protection of data while genetic mutation is a comparatively rare side effect that isn't corrected, it either stands or falls by natural selection of the individuals involved, but not the system itself.

Shannon applies to all communication. Are you going to say there is no communication in a cell? Especially during reproduction? Are you going to say there is no encode->transmission->decode of information? Really?

No, "transmission phase" is not a term used in the description of cell life and reproduction. If you want me to agree to a technical term then please either explain what you mean by it or cite an explanation, especially if you are going to put so much emphasis on its importance (I sense a "gotcha" attempt here). I can say that given that mutations can occur at any point of a cells life (though some points more likely than others) then we can presume either a cell is perpetually in the transmission phase or mutations can occur in phases other than just transmission.

Transmission is a term which is used widely to mean different things both colloquially and within science - don't be vague Yorz.

Fair enough. When I say "transmission phase" I'm talking about the real world example shown in Shannon's diagram of communication.

Basically, it shows encode->transmission->decode with noise entering at the transmission phase.

So I guess the first question to ask you is if there is actually communication going on in a cell? Is DNA encoded information, which is then transmitted, and then decoded to do something specific?

 

[alwight]

Shannon applies to all communication. Are you going to say there is no communication in a cell? Especially during reproduction? Are you going to say there is no encode->transmission->decode of information? Really?

Genetic transcription is a direct copy from the original there is no transmission element. To equate that to a telecoms system that usually involves data copying even before transmission across unpredictable outside world disturbances (noise) and distance and then copying again seems slightly absurd to even make a comparison or consider it at all useful to what happens in a cell. (see your own diagram)

 

[Yorzhik]

Genetic transcription is a direct copy from the original there is no transmission element. To equate that to a telecoms system that usually involves data copying even before transmission across unpredictable outside world disturbances (noise) and distance and then copying again seems slightly absurd to even make a comparison or consider it at all useful to what happens in a cell. (see your own diagram)

Then I guess you're done. Claiming there is no communication in a cell is the kind of thing the precedes glazed eyes when it is brought to your attention that cells, and no less at reproduction, have more communication going on then most call centers.

Remember alwight, all communication is encode->transmission->decode in order to accomplish something.

 

[TheDuke]

Time for some more light entertainment

Time for some more light entertainment

The following is a link to a slightly condescending video, yet with quite some ironically remarkable points.
Many of the frequently appearing notions about the objective validity of the new testament are beautifully addressed in a devious analogy.


To all our YEC friends in this forum: view at your own peril!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KGiHirSATM

 

[alwight]

Then I guess you're done. Claiming there is no communication in a cell is the kind of thing the precedes glazed eyes when it is brought to your attention that cells, and no less at reproduction, have more communication going on then most call centers.

Remember alwight, all communication is encode->transmission->decode in order to accomplish something.

Communication is actually more usually defined as a process of imparting information by using another medium.

 

[Yorzhik]

Communication is actually more usually defined as a process of imparting information by using another medium.

No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Hi Michael, it seems to me that blaming the devil is simply something that you inevitably will have as part of your whole religious scenario. Your God requires there to be an arch-enemy to blame therefore religion creates Satan. No I don't believe it because in all probability it just isn't true, why should it be, it just has no rationality. A super being that exists simply to be evil just for the added glory of your God, presumably having no choice in the matter to be anything else is frankly a ridiculous idea.
Why bother looking for a rational reason for your computer problems, just blame the Devil. :doh:


Talking of ridiculous ideas. If you actually think that any of this nonsense is at all convincing and rational to me then frankly I feel that my intelligence is insulted. I might possibly consider a mythical supernatural realm perhaps in another dimension or universe but the Earth is a rocky planet of which the universe will undoubtable have many billions of.

Michael, Michael, dear me, you have apparently bought into the whole carrot and stick middle ages thinking thing here, hook line and sinker, where religion once controlled the people by fear, demons and witches too perhaps?
Thunder is not God moving the furniture around, physical reality can largely be scientifically explained today. There is absolutely no need for such daft superstitious mumbo jumbo, nobody is going to burn eternally in a lake of fire. I just can't believe that you or anyone could actually believe in such utter codswallop. :nono:

Dear alwight,

I figured that would be how you would respond. Just denial. Of God and of Satan. You can think it is codswallop all that you want, but nevertheless, you shall see it happen when Jesus returns with the clouds of Heaven. Thunder happens when God causes it to. Same as lightning. It is controlled by God. Who do you think controls these low pressures meeting high pressures? It just happens, eh? Hey, I have a lot of catching up to do. I have to go back to Page 1054 and go through posts to see what is going on. I'm two days behind. Last night and the night before. But first, I have to go to radiation, then come home and make supper. My computer is working fine now. So fast. But it only happens at certain times. I think the fan is getting dusty and could use some WD-40 lubricant. Hey Buddy, you're going to be in for quite a ride/surprise. I'm sorry you can't be reached so far. It is a travesty that you all ignore my warnings. Sure, all these things in the Universe and Earth, and it's life all came about by nothing, eh? You've got to be kidding me?? Wake up and smell the coffee. You are up a creek without a paddle.

Sincerest & Loving Regards,

Michael

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

I figured that would be how you would respond. Just denial. Of God and of Satan. You can think it is codswallop all that you want, but nevertheless, you shall see it happen when Jesus returns with the clouds of Heaven. Thunder happens when God causes it to. Same as lightning. It is controlled by God. Who do you think controls these low pressures meeting high pressures? It just happens, eh?

Yes Michael weather just happens.

Hey, I have a lot of catching up to do. I have to go back to Page 1054 and go through posts to see what is going on. I'm two days behind. Last night and the night before. But first, I have to go to radiation, then come home and make supper. My computer is working fine now. So fast. But it only happens at certain times. I think the fan is getting dusty and could use some WD-40 lubricant. Hey Buddy, you're going to be in for quite a ride/surprise. I'm sorry you can't be reached so far. It is a travesty that you all ignore my warnings. Sure, all these things in the Universe and Earth, and it's life all came about by nothing, eh? You've got to be kidding me?? Wake up and smell the coffee. You are up a creek without a paddle.

Sincerest & Loving Regards,

Michael

Are you sure that Satan isn't getting in your computer?

 

[6days]

To all our YEC friends in this forum: view at your own peril!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KGiHirSATM

I would say 'post blasphemous youtube videos at your own peril.'

 

[6days]

Natural selection weeds out the functional from the non-functional, no design required.

False..... the god of evolution, natural selection, is weak and impotent, unable to detect the vast majority of deleterious mutations. If we have a conservative mutation rate of 3 deleterious mutations added to each individual per generation, that means we all have thousands of deleterious mutations. Selection is not your savior.

 

[Jonahdog]

False..... the god of evolution, natural selection, is weak and impotent, unable to detect the vast majority of deleterious mutations. If we have a conservative mutation rate of 3 deleterious mutations added to each individual per generation, that means we all have thousands of deleterious mutations. Selection is not your savior.

Citation please

 

[MichaelCadry]

Yes Michael weather just happens.

Are you sure that Satan isn't getting in your computer?

Dear alwight,

I'm sorry if I was too hard on you. Sometimes I mean the message for everyone, not just the one whom I am posting to. Weather doesn't just happen. God controls who gets rain and who doesn't. He controls warm winters and cold summers. You think we are setting a record and He is doing the best to get through to people by causing the warmest winter on record, etc. We've been breaking records in the past 30-40 years, and more recently, because He's trying to get through to us by phenomenal weather, etc. I can't explain it well, but I think you understand. Whenever there is an earthquake or tornado, people turn to God for help. That is good.

No, Satan is not getting into my computer. I think it is just dusty inside. You must remember that I live in the desert. I will take it apart this weekend and vacuum it out, especially around the fan. The fan also might benefit from some lubricant. I will see. If the fan runs slow, the computer will heat up more. So that could be the cause of my problem.

Best Of Blessings & Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

No, I don't think he said it in the way you meant it or how it may have been remembered by the authors in the same way Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah and John said "I am not Elijah"

Matthew 11:13

…12"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. 13"For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.…


John 1:21

…20And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."


The above stems from (Malachi 4:5, 6)" "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
​

John had been warning of "the wrath to come" but no wrath came. However now, to try to fix the erroneous belief people conclude the wrath will come on the return.


So, not everything in the Bible was accurately understood or remembered as is to be expected.

Dear Caino,

I just came across this and wanted to make sure you got an answer, even though 6days never answered you. Jesus was aware that John the Baptist was, in spirit, the same as Elijah, even though John was not aware of it. The Lord didn't let John know.

Now, has God sent you again, in spirit, the prophet Elijah, and he warns you of the wrath of God to come, before it happens. It is the end of days now, and time again for Elijah to preclude it.

If you don't believe, fine. Time will tell, won't it?

Much Love, In Jesus Christ, Whose 2nd Return Is Looming And Imminent!!

Michael

 

[Tyrathca]

Then I guess you're done. Claiming there is no communication in a cell is the kind of thing the precedes glazed eyes when it is brought to your attention that cells, and no less at reproduction, have more communication going on then most call centers.

Depending what you mean by communication it is occurring in a cell though generally via mRNA, protein concentrations, and ion gradients. There is however seemingly no transmission phase when using Shannon information and looking at DNA, which you seem to have quickly forgot was what was specifically discussed.

Remember alwight, all communication is encode->transmission->decode in order to accomplish something.

Citation needed, that is how communication of information is modelled in with Shannon. If communication doesn't fit that model then it is inappropriate to apply Shannon information theory, it does not necessarily mean you can't call it communication (depending on how you define communication)

With regards to DNA can you at least describe when, where and how the encoding, transmission and decoding occurs? Is the DNA in a constant state of transmission by your view or not? Why? A bit more detail regarding how you are applying Shannon information would be useful, it's not like the math can't be used but to be meaningful you need to have a context and it seems any use of Shannon would require an arbitrary demarcation of transmission time (thus results are of little significance)

 

[alwight]

False..... the god of evolution, natural selection, is weak and impotent, unable to detect the vast majority of deleterious mutations. If we have a conservative mutation rate of 3 deleterious mutations added to each individual per generation, that means we all have thousands of deleterious mutations. Selection is not your savior.

Clearly 6days you still don't seem to understand that natural selection has no purpose or design, that an individual will either succeed or fail in real world conditions.
Counting what you think are deleterious mutations do not automatically accumulate in a species since in practice there will be many parallel individuals that are either individually selectable or not, but no sequential addition. The best adapted are what remain.

 

[Caino]

Dear Caino,

I just came across this and wanted to make sure you got an answer, even though 6days never answered you. Jesus was aware that John the Baptist was, in spirit, the same as Elijah, even though John was not aware of it. The Lord didn't let John know.

Now, has God sent you again, in spirit, the prophet Elijah, and he warns you of the wrath of God to come, before it happens. It is the end of days now, and time again for Elijah to preclude it.

If you don't believe, fine. Time will tell, won't it?

Much Love, In Jesus Christ, Whose 2nd Return Is Looming And Imminent!!

Michael

6days didn't answer because the belief that Elijah would return first was just wrong! It's indefensible.

When John warned of "the wrath to come" he was just wrong! No wrath came, but Bible worshipers must then be dishonest snake oil salesmen because you are simply too proud to admit errors in the Bible. If your religion does not command a base level of intellectual honestly in you then it has failed!