Creation vs. Evolution

[iouae]

Here's a trivial one I Googled earlier. Which answer is correct?

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?

A. Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
B. Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)
C. Both of the above at the same time.

Solomon had 40 thousand horses with stalls for each horse.
He had 12000 charioteers.
He had 4 thousand stalls for horse and chariots, when they were spanned as a team of who knows how many horses per chariot, possibly up to 4.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Oh come on 6days fair doos, yes it may be your fantasy doctrine where you can invent antichrists, a satanic arch-enemy, believe an imaginary global flood was real, we are all cursed because of Adam, the confusion of tongues actually happened, believe in two different creation stories at the same time, a snake talked, rainbows are a sign from God, Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, how many plagues was it(?), angel of death, Gandolf the Grey becomes Gandolf the White etc errr..., :think: ...but atheists often like to fantasise too, only they will usually come back down to Earth occasionally when reality calls.

Dear alwight,

Yes, I can see why you would have trouble believing in the Bible. It has some pretty incredible stuff in it. We believe it because we believe God and that's how we get through it. It is all part of our Savior and God. You read it and say, "What the heck are these impossibilities? They seem highly improbable!!" I don't blame you in the slightest. So, take it easy. I understand your feelings. You just believe the parts of the Bible that you can and leave the rest for later. It will be explained to you then. That's if you want to.

Tons Of Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

 

[iouae]

I could list a great many possible contradictions, and to every one no doubt some apologist somewhere has valiantly tried to explain it all away.

My pet one however is this:
From a simple reading of the four Gospels is it possible to conclude if:
a) Jesus remained totally silent before Pilate?
or
b) Jesus spoke many words on his own behalf?

I don't understand why you ask this in the first place?

Christ appeared before the High Priest and said a few words, admitting He was the Son of God.
Then He appeared before Pilate.

Mark 15
15 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.

3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.

4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.

5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.

So mostly, Christ said nothing, IN FRONT OF HIS ACCUSERS which was so unusual, Pilate marvelled.

John, who gives the most detailed crucifixion account tells us that Christ had a private conversation with Pilate, not in front of His Jewish accusers, which went as follows...

John 18
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?

35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Then Pilate had Christ scourged, and sent him to Herod.
In front of Herod, Christ said not one word.

Herod sent Jesus back to Pilate after saying he (Herod) found no fault with Christ.

Pilate had one last PRIVATE conversation with Christ, which went as follows. This was after Pilate heard that Christ was called the "Son of God". This phrase frightened Pilate. So Pilate called Christ aside privately to ask Him about this.

John 19
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;

9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Thus, sometimes Christ chose to speak (mostly to Pilate privately) and sometimes Christ chose not to speak (to His Jewish accusers).

 

[MichaelCadry]

Hi Michael, I want to believe whatever is true. If there were eye witnesses then it doesn't seem to be them who wrote about it or made a testimony perhaps decades after the supposed facts. The person Darwin was doesn't matter, the important thing is his theory which stands or falls by real evidence and real facts not hearsay and gossip.

The person Jesus was DOES matter, and the important thing is His 'theory' which stands or falls by real evidence and real facts, not hearsay and gossip. Jesus was seen by over 500 persons. Do you expect for each of them to write a book. You have the Gospels and the remainder of the NT to glean that Jesus lived and gave us ways to live by. A testament rather than a theory. Much better, I believe. Do you think that Darwin was more important than Jesus? Jesus would not be so well-known if it weren't for the fact that His believers grew into many, and many, and more. Like wildfire. They like the theory or testament of the best ways to live by. Jesus has tons of pages written about Him, and the Bible has over a thousand pages written about God and His people. Darwin has what?? A manual?

There's no getting through to someone who does not want to give in, or change. You'd rather die trying than change your beliefs to include God and Jesus. And angels.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Hi Michael, I want to believe whatever is true. If there were eye witnesses then it doesn't seem to be them who wrote about it or made a testimony perhaps decades after the supposed facts. The person Darwin was doesn't matter, the important thing is his theory which stands or falls by real evidence and real facts not hearsay and gossip.

Dear alwight,

There were eyewitnesses, to the loaves of bread and fish, multiplying, etc. You just don't want to believe them. You want it quite far apart that it was seen. Jesus taught us a theory too and His does stand by real evidence and facts, and not hearsay or gossip, at all. If certain eyewitnesses did not SEE the things that happened, then it would not be written down for others in the future. If Jesus or God were so forgettable and had their houses made of paper, why do you think They would be so extremely popular right now and through all of these ages?? C'mon, you don't need to ignore me just to make yourself a winner. You want the truth or do you want to please your friends, instead?? I think, the latter, tbh.

There is NO getting through to you!!

I miss you. May God Bring You Answers To Your Questions,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

So where are we at with science and evolution. Do we have things figured out ?

Dear patrickj,

We are at the same point where we were at. That never seems to change. Jesus will swoop down when it is time and settle this religious argument awfully fast and in finality. I hope that you are feeling fine and happy. Don't get downheartedly just because the holidays are over. The whole year lies waiting for us. And the years after that. Life is eternal and fun, if you want it to be. When you die, you will live on. So death is no big problem anymore. And if you were pretty good in your lifetime, your death will not be painful. Your spirit just pops out of your body. And you exist without your body. It's a lot easier to get around fast if you are not encumbered by legs. I guess I'll explain that later.

God Be Between Me And Thee!!

Michael

:guitar: :guitar: :singer: :cloud9: :angel: :cloud9:
​

 

[alwight]

I don't understand why you ask this in the first place?

Christ appeared before the High Priest and said a few words, admitting He was the Son of God.
Then He appeared before Pilate.

Mark 15
15 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.

2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.

3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.

4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.

5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.

So mostly, Christ said nothing, IN FRONT OF HIS ACCUSERS which was so unusual, Pilate marvelled.

John, who gives the most detailed crucifixion account tells us that Christ had a private conversation with Pilate, not in front of His Jewish accusers, which went as follows...

John 18
33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?

34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Then Pilate had Christ scourged, and sent him to Herod.
In front of Herod, Christ said not one word.

Herod sent Jesus back to Pilate after saying he (Herod) found no fault with Christ.

Pilate had one last PRIVATE conversation with Christ, which went as follows. This was after Pilate heard that Christ was called the "Son of God". This phrase frightened Pilate. So Pilate called Christ aside privately to ask Him about this.

John 19
7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;

9 And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Thus, sometimes Christ chose to speak (mostly to Pilate privately) and sometimes Christ chose not to speak (to His Jewish accusers).

Yes I realise that you might want to fudge it but it's really quite simple.
The simple un-doctored answer is that in two gospels, in the trial hall before Pilate Jesus says nothing, and saying nothing amazed Pilate, end of scene.
While over in G. John at the same trial he happily makes a nice speech and accordingly Pilate never marvelled.

Mark 15
15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.
15:3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
15:4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
15:5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.

------------------

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly

------------------

John 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Sorry but I don't need to be told apologetic spin about his Jewish accusers perhaps taking him into another room, or to Herod, or that only "IN FRONT OF HIS ACCUSERS which was so unusual, Pilate marvelled".

In the Judgement hall before Pilate Jesus either remained totally silent or made a speech depending on which gospel you choose to believe. Thus the gospels clearly do contradict whether you like it or not. lain:

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

There were eyewitnesses, to the loaves of bread and fish, multiplying, etc. You just don't want to believe them. You want it quite far apart that it was seen. Jesus taught us a theory too and His does stand by real evidence and facts, and not hearsay or gossip, at all. If certain eyewitnesses did not SEE the things that happened, then it would not be written down for others in the future. If Jesus or God were so forgettable and had their houses made of paper, why do you think They would be so extremely popular right now and through all of these ages?? C'mon, you don't need to ignore me just to make yourself a winner. You want the truth or do you want to please your friends, instead?? I think, the latter, tbh.

There is NO getting through to you!!

I miss you. May God Bring You Answers To Your Questions,

Michael

But Michael there is no eye witness testimony only the stories written by anonymous evangelists in the gospels, don't you see that?
If you were on trial in Judge Judy's court do you think she would allow such hearsay? If I wrote about a hundred eye witnesses that therefore it amounts to actual eye witness testimony of a hundred people, of course it doesn't. :nono:

 

[iouae]

Yes I realise that you might want to fudge it but it's really quite simple.
The simple un-doctored answer is that in two gospels, in the trial hall before Pilate Jesus says nothing, and saying nothing amazed Pilate, end of scene.
While over in G. John at the same trial he happily makes a nice speech and accordingly Pilate never marvelled.

Mark 15
15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.
15:3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
15:4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
15:5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.

------------------

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly

------------------

John 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Sorry but I don't need to be told apologetic spin about his Jewish accusers perhaps taking him into another room, or to Herod, or that only "IN FRONT OF HIS ACCUSERS which was so unusual, Pilate marvelled".

In the Judgement hall before Pilate Jesus either remained totally silent or made a speech depending on which gospel you choose to believe. Thus the gospels clearly do contradict whether you like it or not. lain:

Each Gospel tells a little more of the life of Christ.
If they all spoke only to the same part of the story, three of the Gospels would be redundant.

It is wrong exegesis NOT to add all the Gospel stories together to come to the total truth. Tough that you do not understand this. Like you accuse some creationists of not understanding science methodology, likewise you don't have a clue as to correct exegesis methodology.

 

[6days]

It is wrong exegesis NOT to add all the Gospel stories together to come to the total truth. Tough that you do not understand thi.

You would think atheists must have a very difficult time if they were to read the same story in two different newspapers. How is it possible one jourmalist discussed details the other one didn't? Of course atheists are not dense, but they are willfuĺly ignorant when it comes to evidence leading to our Savior.

Re. Jesus being silent....alwight was already answered with...
Matthew 26
62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One an

 

[Caino]

Yes I realise that you might want to fudge it but it's really quite simple.
The simple un-doctored answer is that in two gospels, in the trial hall before Pilate Jesus says nothing, and saying nothing amazed Pilate, end of scene.
While over in G. John at the same trial he happily makes a nice speech and accordingly Pilate never marvelled.

Mark 15
15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
15:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto them, Thou sayest it.
15:3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
15:4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
15:5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.

------------------

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly

------------------

John 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
18:34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.


Sorry but I don't need to be told apologetic spin about his Jewish accusers perhaps taking him into another room, or to Herod, or that only "IN FRONT OF HIS ACCUSERS which was so unusual, Pilate marvelled".

In the Judgement hall before Pilate Jesus either remained totally silent or made a speech depending on which gospel you choose to believe. Thus the gospels clearly do contradict whether you like it or not. lain:

Would you be more suspicious if every gospel said exactly the same thing????? To me the Bible is very human and error prone as to be expected.

BTW, You missed where Jesus did in fact answer in each. I emboldened those areas in red.

Also, Jesus accompanied by John went before Pilate.....Pilate doesn't come to the Jews judgment hall! Pilate has his own hall and seat.

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear Hedshaker,

Gee; Of All time?! Should I be flattered? I won't say anything about you because I don't want to lower myself to your level.

Oh no? Yet you're quick to threaten people with hell fire for simply not believing as you do. I would say your level is much, much lower. It doesn't effect me cause I know you're talking rubbish, but someone who is not so resolute or children might take it to heart. Please tell me you've never told a child s/he could go to hell for not accepting Jesus?

And I'm sorry but Dunning Krugar is an accurate description. Knowledgeable people have tried to explain about evolution to you and instead of leaning, humbly, you cluelessly try to discredit them for their effort. That is a classic Dunning Krugar effect.

 

[geralduk]

It's actually Billions of years, not millions so you're way out from the get go. And there are plenty of educated Christians who accept the evidence for evolution.

Ken Miller is highly respected for his work in the science of evolution, and was a key witness opposing intelligent design at the Dover trial. He is also a devout Catholic.

You're not even wrong :jawdrop:

it is a good thing that the truth is not democratic for if it was there would be no mention of God anywhere .
In 1 John he speaks of "ye fathers ,ye know Him who is from the beginning"
He who is from the beginning is the Creator .
"Little children know the father and their sins are forgiven them" But they are easily deceived and know not Him who is from the beginning.
You will never know Him who is from the beginning .if you do not believe His Word as to the beginning .
Paul says by faith we KNOW that the worlds were created or formed by God..........
Men without God are as men fumbling in the dark and know not what why they stumble and make theories as to what si what.
Faith sees and under stands things by the Holy Spirit that the natural man in comparison is as blind as a bat.
he can see as far back as the Word of God and as far forwards as the Word of God enlightens.
"So called science " theorises a universe that is man centered and denies God .
But even then by the implacible logic of theor own reasoning they have been forced, compelled , driven and led to oen conclusion . That everything started from one point.
The real question is will you believe man or will you believe God.

in Christ
gerald

 

[Hedshaker]

The real question is will you believe man or will you believe God.

The Bible is the word of man. And no, I don't accept mindless preaching and verse quoting as evidence.

 

[6days]

....
"So called science " theorises a universe that is man centered and denies God .

Good comments but just a wee correction on that one sentence.
Science helps confirm the Creator God and the truth of His Word.

 

[iouae]

In the Judgement hall before Pilate Jesus either remained totally silent or made a speech depending on which gospel you choose to believe. Thus the gospels clearly do contradict whether you like it or not. lain:

If you are at all interested in seeing the Gospels harmonised, go to...
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36264/36264-h/36264-h.htm#part13

 

[alwight]

Each Gospel tells a little more of the life of Christ.
If they all spoke only to the same part of the story, three of the Gospels would be redundant.

It is wrong exegesis NOT to add all the Gospel stories together to come to the total truth. Tough that you do not understand this. Like you accuse some creationists of not understanding science methodology, likewise you don't have a clue as to correct exegesis methodology.

Would you be more suspicious if every gospel said exactly the same thing????? To me the Bible is very human and error prone as to be expected.

BTW, You missed where Jesus did in fact answer in each. I emboldened those areas in red.

Also, Jesus accompanied by John went before Pilate.....Pilate doesn't come to the Jews judgment hall! Pilate has his own hall and seat.

So what conclusion can we make as to what really happened, did Jesus make Pilate marvel or not?
Did any author of a gospel accompany Jesus and took verbatim notes?
Perhaps all four gospel writers trooped in with Jesus? Really?

Come on guys, smell the coffee, the gospels are clearly all dramatized accounts penned decades later by authors with their own agenda. There is nothing wrong with that but don't talk to me about the Bible being the word of God when clearly it's the faulty word of men.

 

[Jose Fly]

So where are we at with science and evolution. Do we have things figured out ?

Why ask that on a religious internet message board? If you're really interested, shouldn't you go to a more science-oriented source?

 

[Yorzhik]

Natural selection is something that is real. But instead of being all powerful it is weak with limitations. It SOMETIMES...on SOME mutations works on the genic level but invariably fails at the genomic level. Selection simply can't select from the hundreds of new mutations added to each generation, or humanity would cease to exist.

Hogwash.

:darwinsm: alwight says such scientifically illiterate things because... CONSENSUS!!! :darwinsm:

 

[Jose Fly]

:darwinsm: alwight says such scientifically illiterate things because... CONSENSUS!!! :darwinsm:

Instead, we should all just accept the empty assertions of some anonymous person called "6days" as unquestioned gospel? If "6days" at "theologyonline" says something about biology, then it is so?