Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

Atheists rely on miracles the same as biblical Christians do. The only difference is you might call it by a different name. Atheists believe in hypothetical, unobservable things such as expansion of the universe or life from non life ....which violate laws of science

But the expansion of the Universe is observable!

Don't play dumb...I'm sure you don't think life from non life is observeable. The start of life is a miracle to atheist, although they may call it magic.

And I'm quite sure you understand the the supposed current expansion may be observed ( its debated) ...but the initial infllationary model is hocus pocus magic... relying on anti science beliefs that violate laws of science.


Example of an atheist miracle

"The Planck epoch is an era in traditional (non-inflationary) big bang cosmology wherein the temperature was so high that the four fundamental forces—electromagnetism, gravitation, weak nuclear interaction, and strong nuclear interaction—were one fundamental force. Little is understood about physics at this temperature; different hypotheses propose different scenarios. Traditional big bang cosmology predicts a gravitational singularity before this time, but this theory relies on general relativity and is expected to break down due to quantum effects.


In inflationary cosmology, times before the end of inflation (roughly 10−32 second after the Big Bang) do not follow the traditional big bang timeline." from Wiki

 

[DavisBJ]

Don't play dumb...I'm sure you don't think life from non life is observeable. The start of life is a miracle to atheist, although they may call it magic.

And I'm quite sure you understand the the supposed current expansion may be observed ( its debated) ...but the initial infllationary model is hocus pocus magic... relying on anti science beliefs that violate laws of science.


Example of an atheist miracle

"The Planck epoch is an era in traditional (non-inflationary) big bang cosmology wherein the temperature was so high that the four fundamental forces—electromagnetism, gravitation, weak nuclear interaction, and strong nuclear interaction—were one fundamental force. Little is understood about physics at this temperature; different hypotheses propose different scenarios. Traditional big bang cosmology predicts a gravitational singularity before this time, but this theory relies on general relativity and is expected to break down due to quantum effects.


In inflationary cosmology, times before the end of inflation (roughly 10−32 second after the Big Bang) do not follow the traditional big bang timeline." from Wiki

Again you spout off on what you say is "anti-science". I think you are poorly qualified to make that judgement. Are you conversant with, even at a rather elementary scientific level, the fundamental scientific concepts that led to proposing the “expansion of the universe”? And are you aware of any specific scientific tests that have actually been done to try to see if this proposed expansion left scientific evidence?

 

[alwight]

Don't play dumb...I'm sure you don't think life from non life is observeable. The start of life is a miracle to atheist, although they may call it magic.

I didn't say it was but presumably life we can observe today wasn't here before so perhaps we all can observe life that came from non-life.

And I'm quite sure you understand the the supposed current expansion may be observed ( its debated) ...but the initial infllationary model is hocus pocus magic... relying on anti science beliefs that violate laws of science.

Since when have you objected to hocus pocus? Creationism is all about miracles isn't it?
Actually galaxies moving apart is seen by the red shift of their light.

 

[gcthomas]

Don't play dumb...I'm sure you don't think life from non life is observeable. The start of life is a miracle to atheist, although they may call it magic.

And I'm quite sure you understand the the supposed current expansion may be observed ( its debated) ...but the initial infllationary model is hocus pocus magic... relying on anti science beliefs that violate laws of science.

There are some solid theories to describe inflation, and some predictions have been made.

If the prediction of B-mode polarisation of the CMB is found, for example, will you accept it as scientific evidence supporting inflationary cosmology?

(I haven't forgotten that you still haven't answered the question as to why you trust C14 dating!)

 

[DavisBJ]

… God … can remain resolute in His purpose over 13.8 billion years. Yet this unwavering resolution can be bent to listen to the prayers of specks of dust such as us. We can change that unwavering resolution such that He will perform a miracle for us. THAT is why I believe …

I like this. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in response to prayer, God causes things to happen that, absent that prayer, would not have happened. One of the most exciting things in science is to discover a new “switch” (metaphorically speaking), that causes something out of the norm to happen. Especially if you don’t understand how it actually works. That’s the kind of stuff that opens up new vistas of research, subjects for graduate theses, and unforeseen advances. Please let me know when and where I might be involved in setting up the necessary scientific equipment to document and measure the physical manifestation of the miracle you say you can get God to do. Be glad to have you as a co-researcher when we send the resulting study out for peer review prior to formal publication.

 

[DavisBJ]

When a whole biome suddenly appears in the Cambrian and Eocene, against the usual evolutionary belief that things develop slowly and slowly diversify, you have no trouble accepting that irrationality. But when multiple new animals all seem to simultaneously arise with no precursors, you say I am being unreasonable to believe in creation? Would you like God to perform double-blind creations for you in a rational, naturalistic and scientific manner, with a panel of scientists writing a paper so that they can replicate it in a laboratory with an experiment and control? Would that "reasonably convince" you?

iouae, recently you posted a moderately long article dealing with “What is Good Science”:

What is “Good Science”?

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/buzz/dinoscience.html

"Disclaimer: This is a gross generalization of what science is about; science is actually much more complex than how it is described here, but this will give you a basic background if you need it.

1) Science is a human endeavor. Scientists are all human, with the typical faults and foibles that non-scientists have. Sociology, politics, psychology, and similar aspects of human nature all have a profound influence on how science is conducted.

2) Science follows certain rules and guidelines. …

As I carefully read that entire post, one thing I did not see in it was where it said that when science does not have an adequate understanding (as you claim about science and the Cambrian Explosion), then the thing to do is to insert God as an explanation in that gap. Just a couple of centuries ago the world was awash in things that there were no natural explanations for. Science has come a long ways in providing a lot of those missing explanations. What is the yardstick for knowing when to say “Science, give it up, this is purely a miracle from God?”

 

[iouae]

I like this. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in response to prayer, God causes things to happen that, absent that prayer, would not have happened. One of the most exciting things in science is to discover a new “switch” (metaphorically speaking), that causes something out of the norm to happen. Especially if you don’t understand how it actually works. That’s the kind of stuff that opens up new vistas of research, subjects for graduate theses, and unforeseen advances. Please let me know when and where I might be involved in setting up the necessary scientific equipment to document and measure the physical manifestation of the miracle you say you can get God to do. Be glad to have you as a co-researcher when we send the resulting study out for peer review prior to formal publication.

Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so....

That may be a start. But you know when someone REALLY loves you, when they are attentive to your needs, and do something nice for you out of the blue, or help you when your last nerve is frayed. And nothing is too small to bring to our Heavenly Father in prayer.

God never performs on demand. When Satan tempted Christ twice to perform miracles to "prove" he was the Messiah, he refused.
When Herod wanted Christ to perform some "magic trick", He refused.

So you will just have to keep an open mind, maybe in a bind ask Him for help (if He exists) and see if you get results.

 

[iouae]

iouae, recently you posted a moderately long article dealing with “What is Good Science”:

... What is the yardstick for knowing when to say “Science, give it up, this is purely a miracle from God?”

When something appears from nothing.

Like multiple loaves and fishes from fewer loaves and fishes.

Or wine from water.

Or the universe, complete with all its laws pops into existence in a creation event science labels, the "Big Bang".

Or when 95% (??) of all matter and energy is inexplicable to science such that the universe is accelerating apart, implying that energy is being added to the universe - I am quite prepared to attribute this (dark energy and dark matter) to God.

Or when life spontaneously arises.

Or when organisms pop into existence during the Cambrian.

Or when mammals pop into existence during the Eocene. Etc.

 

[DavisBJ]

… God never performs on demand. …

Ah, darn. Before when you said “We can change that unwavering resolution such that He will perform a miracle for us”, that was just hyperbole? Oh well, I can work with that limitation. Not a demand on God, but a sincere, heartfelt request. Just to further insulate my negative vibes I won’t even do the requesting. How about simply being in attendance when a righteous Christian family pleads in prayer for the life of their dying sick daughter? Is God so petty that He would rather that beautiful child die than let me see a miracle? Or maybe we could monitor the police scanners and be the first on the scene of some horrific accident where a church van rolled over, and divine help is all that can keep the passengers alive until medical help arrives. If am there, then God will refuse to take action?

… When Satan tempted Christ twice to perform miracles to "prove" he was the Messiah, he refused.
When Herod wanted Christ to perform some "magic trick", He refused.

I hope you are not insinuating I am like either Satan or Herod. I am actually a pretty honorable and decent person who looks out for the well-being of those I come in contact with.

… So you will just have to keep an open mind, maybe in a bind ask Him for help (if He exists) and see if you get results.

The way you word it God is a whole lot more fickle than science is. Science doesn’t demand that I love it unconditionally, in fact sometimes I get irritated with the things science makes me do. But as long as I respect it and abide by the rules of Mother Nature, she has never failed me.

 

[DavisBJ]

When something appears from nothing.

Like multiple loaves and fishes from fewer loaves and fishes.

Or wine from water.

Or the universe, complete with all its laws pops into existence in a creation event science labels, the "Big Bang".

Or when 90% (??) of all matter and energy is inexplicable to science such that the universe is accelerating apart, implying that energy is being added to the universe - I am quite prepared to attribute this (dark energy and dark matter) to God.

Or when life spontaneously arises.

Or when organisms pop into existence during the Cambrian.

Or when mammals pop into existence during the Eocene. Etc.

When I asked for a yardstick by which we could know when to attribute something to God that science has not got a good explanation for, I had hoped for something more descriptive than just a list of neato happenings. Best I can see, all you have done is made a list of those things that you think science has not got a good handle on, and you probably think science never will. But as I mentioned before, that same rationale just a few hundred years ago would have called for science to not bother trying to understand tornados, disease, eclipses, earthquakes, comets, or fanciful ideas like men flying high in the air.

I take it your recommendation is for universities to save their money and drop any research into the fields you have in your list?

 

[jgarden]

Psalms 104:5
Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth, and sees everything under the heavens.

Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them;

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on the earth or sea or against any tree.

Revelation 20:8
... and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
*****************************************************************************

Taken literally, we live in a geocentric world set on an unmovable foundation (Psalms 104:5) whereby its the sun that rotates around it (Ecclesiastes 1:5).

The earth was created flat, not a sphere, so that God and Christ could view it all at one time. (Job 28:24) (Matthew 4:8)

In addition to being flat, the earth is a form of quadrilateral (square, rectangle) with four corners (Revelation 7:1) (Revelation 20:8) (Isaiah 11:12)

Even our conservative "friends" would no longer interpret these verses literally but as Biblical metaphors.

In the same way, Genesis 1 can be interpreted as a metaphor without renouncing the existence of God or His active role in the world.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I like this. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in response to prayer, God causes things to happen that, absent that prayer, would not have happened. One of the most exciting things in science is to discover a new “switch” (metaphorically speaking), that causes something out of the norm to happen. Especially if you don’t understand how it actually works. That’s the kind of stuff that opens up new vistas of research, subjects for graduate theses, and unforeseen advances. Please let me know when and where I might be involved in setting up the necessary scientific equipment to document and measure the physical manifestation of the miracle you say you can get God to do. Be glad to have you as a co-researcher when we send the resulting study out for peer review prior to formal publication.

Dear DavisBJ,

You thought I was gone? I was just busy. God answers prayer to people who deserve it and those who have Faith that He will do just that. He doesn't do it for Science to experiment on. You're just out of luck.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

When I asked for a yardstick by which we could know when to attribute something to God that science has not got a good explanation for, I had hoped for something more descriptive than just a list of neato happenings. Best I can see, all you have done is made a list of those things that you think science has not good a good handle on, and you probably think science never will. But as I mentioned before, that same rationale just a few hundred years ago would have called for science to not bother trying to understand tornados, disease, eclipses, earthquakes, comets, or fanciful ideas like men flying high in the air.

I take it your recommendation is for universities to save their money and drop any research into the fields you have in your list?

Dear BJ,

Just 'neato happenings?' C'mon!! Yes, I'd tell science to not waste their time. Their time is about running out for it all anyway. Just because I didn't know which season Jesus is returning, that by far, doesn't mean that He isn't returning extremely soon. So don't hold your breath, and save your science money. For all that research has learned from tornadoes, earthquakes, storms, hurricanes is that we have no handle on any of these occurrences whatsoever. God determines all of the details, not mankind. Who are you joking?? What, because we actually sent 3 men to the moon and a space station, and we have to breathe abnormally or we die? We've understood certain diseases and created others. WHAT is CAUSING Cancer? Is it pesticides, the air we breathe, some new chemicals that they put in food or cigarettes?? There are at least 1,000 different ingredients in cigarette tobacco, including one or more to get you addicted to them. Men put these ingredients into them. Man could probably cure cancer right now easily, but that means a LOT of medical and pharmaceutical companies would lose billions. Same with many other diseases. Ah, there is no talking with you.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear All,

About this deluge! It was a Great Encompassing FLOOD. Noah took birds into the Ark also. If God was destroying all flesh off of the earth, then why wouldn't birds just fly to the nearest dry spot and stay there, and survive this Flood, if it was only a local flood? I mean if there is dry land somewhere in this Great Flood, then the birds closest to it would fly to it. Noah would not need birds on the Ark. I'm not going away!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear BJ,

I do have evidence of a miracle that God did for me. He sent 7 inches of snow on the New York Daily News Bldg. within 48 hours of my sending a reporter a letter telling him it would happen. God told me to write him and tell the reporter that, so the reporter would know that God was really with me. I got a 3-hour interview and one terrified reporter. I have a copy of the letter I sent him on ABC-TV stationery, and I also have the article reporting about the 7 inches of snow that fell in their rival newspapers story about it. God has done many miracles for me. That's why I'm in Phoenix, instead of Miami Beach!!

Michael

 

[iouae]

I take it your recommendation is for universities to save their money and drop any research into the fields you have in your list?

I found both your posts above somewhat disturbing in that you generate statements, implying they are a paraphrase of what I have said or think. The snippet above is an example.

Wouldn't a more honest approach be to ask what I think?

My answer to the above would be for science to continue trying to find out what comprises dark energy and matter. So what I recommend is the opposite of what you implied I believe.

In the past we used to think matter was the interesting science, e.g. subatomic particles. Now the interesting science is space itself or what comprises space-time. At the subatomic level matter pops into existence and back out.

Science reveals God, so the more research the better.

 

[alwight]

When something appears from nothing.

Such as?

Like multiple loaves and fishes from fewer loaves and fishes.

Did it really happen, or was it just a nice story? Got any evidence?

Or wine from water.

As above

Or the universe, complete with all its laws pops into existence in a creation event science labels, the "Big Bang".

Now you're attempting to associate two un-evidenced miraculous physics suspending anecdotal stories with the origins of the universe, which perhaps doesn't actually require the suspension of the laws of physics as your first two do? I realise that you would like to simply claim that God did it miraculously, are you therefore saying that science should just accept the miraculous and stop investigating?

Or when 95% (??) of all matter and energy is inexplicable to science such that the universe is accelerating apart, implying that energy is being added to the universe - I am quite prepared to attribute this (dark energy and dark matter) to God.

So science should close down the LHC and praise God?

Or when life spontaneously arises.

Such as?

Or when organisms pop into existence during the Cambrian.

Or when mammals pop into existence during the Eocene. Etc.

Didn't we agree that your definition of "pop into existence" was a period of several million years?

 

[iouae]

Such as?

Did it really happen, or was it just a nice story? Got any evidence?


As above

Now you're attempting to associate two un-evidenced miraculous physics suspending anecdotal stories with the origins of the universe, which perhaps doesn't actually require the suspension of the laws of physics as your first two do? I realise that you would like to simply claim that God did it miraculously, are you therefore saying that science should just accept the miraculous and stop investigating?

So science should close down the LHC and praise God?

Such as?

Didn't we agree that your definition of "pop into existence" was a period of several million years?

Do you believe in Dark energy and Dark matter?

If you do, then that means that you are 95% in the dark?

So I feel fine ascribing the above to God.

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear DavisBJ,

You thought I was gone?

No, I don’t recall saying anything like that. Anyway, welcome back to my thread that Patrick Jane handed over to me a months or so ago. Good to have a previous thread owner drop in for a visit.

God answers prayer to people who deserve it and those who have Faith that He will do just that.

That’s great. That is why I said I would select a devout righteous family who have great faith to study. I ask you the question I asked iouae – will your God refuse to answer their prayers and let their precious and innocent sick daughter die just because I am watching? You do realize that there is often very relevant information even in failed experiments?

You're just out of luck.

I’m not counting on luck. You guys keep telling me that God reaches down into this physical world and performs miracles. I’ll even ask some competent scientist who is also a strong believer in God to do take the scientific data. I won’t even be in the vicinity when the expected-for answer to prayer is granted.

 

[iouae]

I ask you the question I asked iouae – will your God refuse to answer their prayers and let their precious and innocent sick daughter die just because I am watching?

Another great example of the false witness way of arguing.
Let's just call it "#9" arguing.