Creation vs. Evolution

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iouae

Well-known member
Not exactly. I am more than happy with God creating anything at all by any rational naturalistic scientific means.

What if God just does miracles His non-rational, unscientific, non-naturalistic way? That would not suit you, right?

My objections only begin if miraculous events can freely be inserted at any arbitrary point that just happen to suit an individuals own personal belief.

You mean like Jesus did, changing water to wine arbitrarily at the request of Mary?

If you can keep religious belief and science in separate mental boxes then I'll not be complaining.

We are talking about God creating Cambrian fauna. How would you like me to separate that event into 2 separate boxes?

The only other option is to demonstrate where the miraculous has happened so that I am reasonably convinced of it, but I suspect you won't be able to do that.

When a whole biome suddenly appears in the Cambrian and Eocene, against the usual evolutionary belief that things develop slowly and slowly diversify, you have no trouble accepting that irrationality. But when multiple new animals all seem to simultaneously arise with no precursors, you say I am being unreasonable to believe in creation? Would you like God to perform double-blind creations for you in a rational, naturalistic and scientific manner, with a panel of scientists writing a paper so that they can replicate it in a laboratory with an experiment and control? Would that "reasonably convince" you?
 

alwight

New member
Not exactly. I am more than happy with God creating anything at all by any rational naturalistic scientific means.
What if God just does miracles His non-rational, unscientific, non-naturalistic way? That would not suit you, right?
Sorry but I just don't see any evidence or signs of a miraculous anything ever happening anywhere. But what suits me is whatever is actually the truth not someone else's bald assertions or imaginings which are imo probably because they desperately want to believe in such a wondrous being rather than face a possibly less than reassuring reality.

My objections only begin if miraculous events can freely be inserted at any arbitrary point that just happen to suit an individuals own personal belief.
You mean like Jesus did, changing water to wine arbitrarily at the request of Mary?
There used to be an old comedy sitcom called "Bewitched" with Dick York and Elizabeth Montgomery. People like to be enthralled by something magical which is probably why such things get added to otherwise more humdrum yarns.
I'm not convinced that the gospels are anything more than dramatic and embellished reconstructions by anonymous evangelists done at an altogether later time, while G. John of course has its own more individualistic spin which may have suited a specific audience of that time.

If you can keep religious belief and science in separate mental boxes then I'll not be complaining.
We are talking about God creating Cambrian fauna. How would you like me to separate that event into 2 separate boxes?
I see no rational reason to believe that such fauna were simply created as is. In a naturalistic world they must have evolved, you can't mix and match creationism with science.

The only other option is to demonstrate where the miraculous has happened so that I am reasonably convinced of it, but I suspect you won't be able to do that.
When a whole biome suddenly appears in the Cambrian and Eocene, against the usual evolutionary belief that things develop slowly and slowly diversify, you have no trouble accepting that irrationality. But when multiple new animals all seem to simultaneously arise with no precursors, you say I am being unreasonable to believe in creation? Would you like God to perform double-blind creations for you in a rational, naturalistic and scientific manner, with a panel of scientists writing a paper so that they can replicate it in a laboratory with an experiment and control? Would that "reasonably convince" you?
Again, what do you actually mean by "suddenly"? I already explained that "suddenly" here is in fact still probably something very gradual in human and evolutionary terms. Punctuated Equilibrium does not imply spontaneous creation. You really can't presume any miraculous events happened particularly since there is plenty of evidence of life existing long before the pre Cambrian, the "explosion" is greatly exaggerated sometimes, and yes much of it un-evidenced I suspect and besides "miracles" don't explain anything in an otherwise natural world. Any absence of specific evolutionary evidence is not evidence of absence.
 

6days

New member
alwight said:
6days said:
science does not deny the possibility of miracles.
Yes it does.

Atheists rely on miracles the same as biblical Christians do. The only difference is you might call it by a different name. Atheists believe in hypothetical, unobservable things such as expansion of the universe or life from non life ....which violate laws of science
 

DavisBJ

New member
… Re. Duane Gish, I have heard testimonies of those who sat in the audience when Gish debated Ian Pilmer. That debate played a role in them accepting Christ as their Savior! Gish did help make a difference for eternity. …
When I ignore the fluff that you offer beyond the question I asked, your response about Gish’s impact on science is insightful. Gish was substantially like King Kong – he was loved by many, he drew crowds, beat up his opponents, and even – as you indicate- drew many to worship whatever god he championed. And, like the great ape of legend, his legacy in adding to science was no more significant than any other Hollywood entertainer. Sad that so many Christians can’t (or prefer not to) differentiate between science as portrayed in the glamorous world of entertainment and the mundane world of science most real contributing scientists live in.
 

DavisBJ

New member
Atheists rely on miracles the same as biblical Christians do. The only difference is you might call it by a different name. Atheists believe in hypothetical, unobservable things such as expansion of the universe or life from non life ....which violate laws of science
Are you conversant with, even at a rather elementary scientific level, the fundamental scientific concepts that led to proposing the “expansion of the universe”? And are you aware of any specific scientific tests that have actually been done to try to see if this proposed expansion left scientific evidence?
 

alwight

New member
Atheists rely on miracles the same as biblical Christians do. The only difference is you might call it by a different name. Atheists believe in hypothetical, unobservable things such as expansion of the universe or life from non life ....which violate laws of science
But the expansion of the Universe is observable! As observed originally by a Christian Father iirc.
Just because you don't want to see the evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that you too have a Morton's Demon.
 

iouae

Well-known member
What specifically do you find funny here?
I guess it's not right to laugh at another man's faith. You obviously believe it is the Gospel truth. I found every bit of it funny.

Originally Posted by alwight
"Darwinian theory has stood the test of time and the evidence. It made predictions which have come true and remains un-falsified."
 

alwight

New member
I guess it's not right to laugh at another man's faith. You obviously believe that to be true.

Originally Posted by alwight
"Darwinian theory has stood the test of time and the evidence. It made predictions which have come true and remains un-falsified."
Have you never heard of Darwin's Moth or don't you believe that it exists?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Again, what do you actually mean by "suddenly"? I already explained that "suddenly" here is in fact still probably something very gradual in human and evolutionary terms.


http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/how_sudden_was_074511.html

"How "Sudden" Was the Cambrian Explosion? "

"Instead, he equates the Cambrian explosion with the most explosive period of the Cambrian radiation (as most Cambrian experts do) in which the vast majority of the higher taxa arose. He asserts specifically that the re-dating of critical Cambrian strata in 1993 established that the strata documenting the first appearance of the majority of the Cambrian phyla and classes took place within a 10 million year period -- a period Meyer does equate with "the explosion of novel Cambrian animal forms." (pp. 71-72) As he describes it, "these studies [i.e., radiometric analyses of zircon crystals in Siberian rocks] also suggested that the explosion of novel Cambrian animal forms" took about 10 million years. (p. 71)"

"An analysis by MIT geochronologist Samuel Bowring has shown that the main pulse of Cambrian morphological innovation occurred in a sedimentary sequence spanning no more than 6 million years. Yet during this time representatives of at least sixteen completely novel phyla and about thirty classes first appeared in the rock record. In a more recent paper using a slightly different dating scheme, Douglas Erwin and colleagues similarly show that thirteen new phyla appear in a roughly 6-million-year window. (p. 73)"


Read it all for yourself, but allowing for dating errors, it was simultaneous.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Have you never heard of Darwin's Moth or don't you believe that it exists?

Brown moths on sooty backgrounds, because they were better camouflaged.

Look around at all the dogs on earth today. They came from those 2 which came off the Ark. Every animal contains inherent variability. Isolated finches will get slightly specialised beaks as Darwin discovered. That's not proof of evolution.
 

gcthomas

New member
Brown moths on sooty backgrounds, because they were better camouflaged.

Look around at all the dogs on earth today. They came from those 2 which came off the Ark. Every animal contains inherent variability. Isolated finches will get slightly specialised beaks as Darwin discovered. That's not proof of evolution.

Are you denying that mutations can contribute variability?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Are you denying that mutations can contribute variability?

No!

But did you all not receive the memo from Evolution Central not to use the cheesy example of the Peppered moth as an example of evolution?

The light and brown moths were there from the start. A dirty background favoured more brown moths surviving. This is not evolution. It is selective breeding or survival of the fittest. This natural phenomenon does not prove evolution. You think why.
 

Jose Fly

New member
No!

But did you all not receive the memo from Evolution Central not to use the cheesy example of the Peppered moth as an example of evolution?

The light and brown moths were there from the start. A dirty background favoured more brown moths surviving. This is not evolution. It is selective breeding or survival of the fittest. This natural phenomenon does not prove evolution. You think why.

All you're doing here is showing us that you don't know what evolution is.
 

Jose Fly

New member
If all you want to do is make like your avatar, then tell me why I should bother replying?

Maybe you should stop focusing on irrelevant things like avatars, and pay closer attention to the subject being discussed.

Say something sensible that one can reply to.

Says the person who thinks that changing allele frequencies in moth populations isn't evolution. Hilarious.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Maybe you should stop focusing on irrelevant things like avatars, and pay closer attention to the subject being discussed.



Says the person who thinks that changing allele frequencies in moth populations isn't evolution. Hilarious.

But the alleles were there to start with, so sorry not evolution.

And no new species either.

But your thinking that a change in allele frequency in a population IS evolution shows that you were asleep the day they taught evolution at your school.
 
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