iouae
Well-known member
I am sure it is, but unless you tell me how, I will have to remain in blissful ignorance
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter MichaelCadry
- Start date
- Status
I am sure it is, but unless you tell me how, I will have to remain in blissful ignorance
iouae
Well-known member
I have never felt in conflict with science over an old universe.
I have never felt in conflict with religion because I believe that if you look at....
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
... realising that the "was" could equally be translated as "became" (NIV) then this opens the possibility that Genesis is not describing the original creation/Big Bang but rather a replenishing after a mass extinction.
6days
New member
DavisBJ said:
OK. .. well we can do one field of science at a time but let's start with......
ARCHAEOLOGY / HISTORY (confirms accuracy)
Luke (Gospel of Luke) was perhaps the world's greatest historian. The research Luke did is reflected in the accuracy of his account. The Gospel of Luke is just one of many historically accurate Books in God's Word.
The Gospel of Luke besides numerous mentions of things with historical and archaeological significance also mentions;*
32 countries*
54 cities*
9 islands.*
Because of the numerous mention to countries and cities, Sir William Ramsay thought that this book would be the easiest one to disprove. He along with his archaeological team set out to Asia Minor to prove the Bible wrong. But... a funny thing happened. "Ramsay became so overwhelmed with the evidence he eventually converted to Christianity"*
Ramsey said*"I began with a mind unfavorable to it...but more recently I found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topography, antiquities, and society of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth"
Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians."
http://www.bibleevidences.com/archeology.htm
Interesting how so many people say the Bible is filled with errors. Yet for many who are willing to study it with an open mind, such as Sir William Ramsay, Scripture is inerrant.*
.....................................................................
Archaeologist Clifford Wilson
"There have been plenty of claims that things contradict the biblical account, but the Bible has a habit of being proved right after all. I well remember one of the world’s leading archaeologists at Gezer rebuking a younger archaeologist who was ‘rubbishing’ the Bible. He just quietly said, ‘Well, if I were you, I wouldn’t rubbish the Bible.’ When the younger archaeologist asked ‘Why’?, he replied, ‘Well, it just has a habit of proving to be right after all.’ And that’s where I stand.
Professor Nelson Glueck, who I suppose would be recognized as one of the top five of the ‘greats’ in biblical archaeology, gave a marvellous lecture to 120 American students who were interacting with the Arabs. He said, ‘I have excavated for 30 years with a Bible in one hand and a trowel in the other, and in matters of historical perspective, I have never yet found the Bible to be in error’.
Professor G. Ernest Wright, Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Studies at Harvard University, gave a lecture at that same dig. He made the point that (because of the researches associated with the Hittites and the findings of Professor George Mendenhall concerning what are called the Suzerainty Covenant Treaties between the Hittite kings and their vassals) it had become clear that the records of Moses, when dealing with covenants, must be dated back to the middle of the second millennium*BC. That’s about 1500*BC. Also, that those writings should be recognized as a unity. In other words, they go back to one man. That one man could only be Moses.
I went to Professor Wright later and said, ‘Sir, this is very different from what you’ve been putting out in your own writings.’ He looked at me and said, ‘Clifford, for 30 years I’ve been teaching students coming to Harvard to train for the Christian ministry; I’ve been telling them they could forget Moses in the Pentateuch, but at least in these significant areas of the covenant documents that are there in the Pentateuch, I’ve had to admit that I was wrong.’
They were two scholastic giants. One says, ‘I’ve excavated for 30 years and I’ve never found the Bible to be in error’—basically that’s what he was saying. The other says, ‘For 30 years I’ve been wrong.’ It’s rather sad, isn’t it, that a good man such as Professor Wright had been so swept along with the ridiculous documentary hypothesis* that he had taken a wrong stand for so long. Let me stress that Professor Wright was a man of the highest integrity."
Last edited:
I am sure it is, but unless you tell me how, I will have to remain in blissful ignorance
Firstly, I'd like to complement you on this attempt at reconciling both worlds.
Secondly I hope Jonah will not mind if I try to answer
There was no distinct mass extinction event 6000 years ago, in fact the latest extinction "event" is considered to have ended over 10000 years ago and it was not a single event but rather a lengthy phase that took on the order of 100000s of years to occur.
Evolution is BTW a proven process
(even 6days knows it, even though he dislikes the conclusions stemming from it)There was no flood - really sorry about that!
You cannot have a viable population from just 2 individuals, so even though I personally like the idea of Adam & Eve, it never happened.
Modern humans have been around for at least 100000 years!
The social capacities of earlier hominids are outside of my knowledge, as far as I'm aware of it, neanderthals had burial rituals, language, control of fire etc.
Cheers
6days
New member
They annoy me too... not sure why they mysteriously appear
6days
New member
iouae said:
It can't equally be translated as "became", and that is why no major Bible translation uses that word. ( incl the NIV)
Problem with your compromise is it (a)contradicts scripture, (b)contradicts the words of Christ, (c)contradicts the nature of God and (d)destroys the gospel.
There are many verses throughout scripture that contradict your compromise, but will just use one as example.
A) Ex.20:11 "For in six days the*Lord*made the heavens and the earth,A)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-2063A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; text-indent: -48px; widows: auto; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">*the sea, and all that is in them..."
You seem to believe that God actually made the heavens, earth and sea before the six days.
B) Matt.19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,"
You seem to think Jesus misspoke, *and that He should have said ' from a beginning' or 'from the re-creation'.
C) Deut.32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect..."
You seem to think God is less than perfect and experimented with Neandertals. You contradict the nature of God and science which shows Neandertals were as human as you and I.*
D) Rom5:12 "For just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin..."
You seem to think there was "mass extinctions" before sin entered the world, and that animal suffering and death are something God calls good.
Very good. But I am not aware that the archaeology or geography spoken of in New Testament passages has been much of an issue in the debates between fundamentalists and scientists. I know I have not contested such. I suspect that much of the New Testament account is not a work of pure fiction, but rather a compilation (and probably corruption) of accounts that had their basis in real-work locations and people.
Do you claim, with equal conviction, that “God’s word” is equally supported by science in the more disputed areas – such as the age of the earth and the Theory of Evolution?
iouae
Well-known member
Thanks for your reply.Firstly, I'd like to complement you on this attempt at reconciling both worlds.
Secondly I hope Jonah will not mind if I try to answer
There was no distinct mass extinction event 6000 years ago, in fact the latest extinction "event" is considered to have ended over 10000 years ago and it was not a single event but rather a lengthy phase that took on the order of 100000s of years to occur.
Evolution is BTW a proven process
There was no flood - really sorry about that!
You cannot have a viable population from just 2 individuals, so even though I personally like the idea of Adam & Eve, it never happened.
Modern humans have been around for at least 100000 years!
The social capacities of earlier hominids are outside of my knowledge, as far as I'm aware of it, neanderthals had burial rituals, language, control of fire etc.
Cheers
I am no expert on this but I believe Clovis culture started 6000 years ago, and ended with the flood. Clovis culture is nicely sandwiched between two extinction events.
The dating I don't want to get too much into, except to say pre-flood, radiation levels were lower, reducing C14, making 6000 years ago date to 12000 - which is when Clovis culture is believed to begin - after an ice age (when earth was "without form and void" but not utterly devoid of all life). And because there was a flood, the multitude of strata gives a further impression of greater age. Dating is notoriously iffy.
Most indigenous North Americans trace their DNA to Clovis people. With the human genographic project there is so much talk of a mitochondrial Eve through whom all living trace their DNA. This is leaning towards the Biblical story of Eve IMO.
Here is a link to Clovis culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture
What time period for Neanderthals and H erectus and H heidlebergenis? And how do we know?
iouae
Well-known member
NIV as footnote says "or became" so it is possible.
A) I do believe that in 6 days God created the heavens, earth, sea with its new heavenly (bird), earthly (angiosperms, man) and marine creatures (whale) life. It was a completely new creation, one of many.
B) There have been MANY beginnings. Its a whole Bible study which the Bible supports. Christ was slain from the foundation (one beginning), man created at another, the post flood world was a new beginning.
C) I do believe God experimented with proto-Adams. Neanderthals were very uncreative, same stone axes and spears, no bartering, no progression of culture. So H erectus and H heidelbergensis etc were tried till these functioned more in His image, after His likeness. Yes I believe that even God experiments till He gets it right. That may be why we have a New Covenant.
D) The whole fossil record is full of T Rex with big teeth eating everything else, long before 6000 years ago.
Animals cannot sin. Sin entered not with one man, but one woman and with it eternal death without a saviour.
God had dinosaurs live long before man to die in a mass extinction so you and I can commute in these latter times. Thank God for gas.
iouae
Well-known member
This link has a beautiful timeline chart starting 4 million years ago till today when all the strains of Australopithecenes and Homo were extant.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150910-human-evolution-change/
How do we know? I take the times with a fat pinch of salt. Because I have no dog in the fight, to me it does not matter. All that I know for certain is that when God was done experimenting, they were wiped out and Adam and Eve created 6000 years ago.
Last edited:
alwight
New member
I would have said *s come from your keyboard, that or divine intervention perhaps?
No link
iouae
Well-known member
Apologies. See the chart "A place in time"
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150910-human-evolution-change/
alwight
New member
So God isn't omniscient then?
iouae
Well-known member
That word is not in my concordance.
Omniscient is a word that I have seen commonly used as describing a characteristic of God. Are you honestly not aware of what it means?
iouae
Well-known member
I know what it means.
I believe even God learns and perfects and gets things right by trial and error. Making a working human is not easy. Making a working universe is not easy. To know how hard it was to make a fully functioning human, I look at the chart of Australopithecean and Homo ?? types of hominids, and that is how hard it was for God to make a human.
This latest one H. naledi had half the brain size to that of us, yet it seemingly buried its dead, so it had the concept of missing dead folks, or it did it as a religion or sign of respect to the dead. Either way, with half our brain, it seemed to function well. I am sure God learned from this experiment too. Brains burn 9 times the energy of other tissues. So with big brains comes big energy usage, so fire is needed. This enables a big brain and small gut. Earth is God's footstool, or His shed, where He passed millennia experimenting.
Last edited:
- Status