Creation vs. Evolution

[alwight]

Dear Davis,

No, I don't believe in what each set of scientists come up with. They all feed off of each other. I don't believe in all of these galaxies either, but I do believe in our galaxy. I will leave you with Heb. 11:3KJV. Think hard about it. Everything is not as it appears to be. God did that!!

Michael

Hi Michael, I think you have probably taken "flogging dead horses" to a whole new level.
You are simply going to believe as you do, whatever honest and accurate science is presented to you, claiming that science has got it all wrong only because it doesn't fit with your beliefs, not because you can actually demonstrate any error or deceit. lain:

 

[Interplanner]

IP, in your mind, what message is the text found in the Bible trying to convey, and to whom did God want that message to be delivered?

re Gen 1-11.
This material concerns the nations. Genesis does not sustain attention on Abraham and his descendants until 12, but the same promise immediately shows up. But more to the point, Gen 1 was written to show to the neighboring nations around Israel who was actually Creator. God put Abraham and his descendants in the place that connects three contintents so that the foundational truth of Gen 1-11 would be spread to the world, and then later the people attending Pentecost would likewise spread the Gospel to "the known world."

In competition were:

Canaanite god of Molech: fertility cycles, child sacrifice. The annual cyle consisted of preserving the sperm of the most successful farmer by his sexual intercourse with a shrine virgin. The child was then burned and the ashes were made into a drink to keep the alpha-farmer of the next season alive. There were many sub-versions of this practice in the little area called Canaan, and that is what God wished to stamp out.

Gen 1 showed a God who keeps creation going by his power and word. He stopped whatever was there before which displeased him and created a world fit for mankind in which each species keeps producing because of his divine plan. This separateness from nature itself is at enmity with Canaanite religion, in which the force of nature itself was to be preserved by the rituals.

Egypt: a belief that divine Pharaohs had defeated a pre-existing massive lizard and formed the residue of him into earth; he brought his divine power with him from Orion. This is why the pyramids of Geza are laid out to match Orion's belt--slightly off of straight alignment. The Pharaoh defeated him with the sword he wears--see the constellation--and to insure a continual succession of pharaohs and a stable world, the shaft of one pyramid aims at a female constellation, and it is said that the Pharoahs semen travels there to impregnate her for the upcoming year.

To this, Gen 1 says similarly that God is the creator and victor over the 'formless and void' that was there, not a Pharoah. God's son would come one day and provide redemption; it was not a matter of physically producing many children for a sure supply of the seed of a Pharaoh to keep the world stable.

Persia: a belief that a huge beast in the sea was defeated by a divine king to make this world. In addition there are kings who claimed their victory over stormy waters, and/or the flood, and one 'proved' this with an aqueduct under the Euphrates.

Hindi: a belief that the force of Sat (order) overcame the force of Asat (chaos) at creation and formed this world.

To both of these, Gen 1 says that it was God who righted the world from the watery chaos that was 'formless and void.' The Lord puts things right by his mere word; He spoke and it came into being--or form.

God wished to end the Canaanite practice by force and by the truth of Gen 1. And also by the account of Isaac, in which the total opposite of Canaanite religion happens: a son is born, miraculously instead of ceremonially, apart from normal sexual practice. The barrenness of both Abraham and Sarah are exhibited as the counterpart of the alpha-farmer selecting a delicious virgin for sex; and then Isaac is 'resurrected' from apparent death in the stalled sacrifice. In his place, is the sacrifice of an animal as a reminder of the redemptive promised Seed of Gen 3. That practice forms the basis of Judaism, in place of the death and primitivity of child-sacrifice.

As for the regional impact of early Genesis on its neighbors, I visited the national museum of Moldova a few years ago (3 countries away from Israel) and there was an ancient fragment kept there about the miraculous birth of Isaac that dated from the 2nd millenia BC when Judaism originated. Word gets around. People may confuse the physical descendancy with the redemption people who would be formed by the coming Seed, but at least the supernatural side of Isaac's existence was understood and was intact that far away from Israel and during that time period.



Sources:
Schaeffer. GENESIS IN SPACE AND TIME.
" " . NO FINAL CONFLICT.
Waltke. CREATION AND CHAOS. Hebrew scholar relates Gen 1 to ANE cosmology.
Keller. THE BIBLE AS HISTORY.
Michener. THE SOURCE.
Wakefield. GOD'S BATTLE WITH THE SEA-MONSTER.
Ross. CREATION AND TIME.
Lewis. GOD IN THE DOCK.
____. "Canaanite Religion" Old Testament Studies.

 

[Interplanner]

Hi Michael, I think you have probably taken "flogging dead horses" to a whole new level.
You are simply going to believe as you do, whatever honest and accurate science is presented to you, claiming that science has got it all wrong only because it doesn't fit with your beliefs, not because you can actually demonstrate any error or deceit. lain:

I don't believe God does optical illusions. It just happens that last week, an astronomer member here send the astronomical meaning of Heb 11:3 to me AND
I also read in Lewis that Ptolemy's book ALGAMEST had declared in the 2nd century that the earth was a mere mathematical point in a massive universe.

So in Biblical times, the earth was not thought of as the only thing in the universe; that is a mistake of the medieval period.

And the astronomical meaning of Heb 11:3 is not that God just popped things into existence out of nowhere, but out of things that are not visible. Here is the commentary on that verse by October23:

This last part seems to Refer to Stars which are composed of Hydrogen Gas
which the Eye Cannot See ...........
The Hydrogen of a Star over the ages FUZES TO HELIUM, THEN TO SILICON, OXYGEN, CARBON AND FINALLY IRON AND BECOMES A BROWN DWARF WHICH COOLS DOWN TO FORM A PLANET WITH A MOLTEN IRON CORE AS WE HAVE HERE ON EARTH.

Thus Hydrogen which we cannot see becomes those PLANETS which we can see.


This is another indication that the universe is old even though Gen 1 is a recent event.

This doesn't answer much about ancient astronomy's knowledge, but they did know of areas of darkness in the sky and referred to stray stars (ie meteors) as a form of scandal that end up in such darkness. They had a grave fear of darkness as inescapable; the vocab blurs the distinction between chains and darkness. Today we call that 'gravity so dense that light cannot escape.' I'm referring to those lines in 2 Pet 2 and Jude that are the basis of metaphors about scandalous teachers.

 

[6days]

...The report dealt with the detection of a high-powered signal that had been received from a clearly distant source in space. The regularity of the signal was so predictable and precise that some astrophysicists said it had to come from an artificial source (maybe LGMs). That was before there was a very good understanding of what a pulsar was.

Cool! I remember that.*

Side Story. .. pulsars create some pretty fascinating sounds. There is the sound of a pulsar that has been used as a background sound in a worship song ' How Great is Our God'.*

You really didn't address the point that everything which begins to exist has a cause.

... What I did was to list specific examples showing that when we get very far from the world we are accustomed to dealing with, then everyday logic cannot be depended on. I know, and apparently you don’t, that trivially claiming “science and logic” support some of your ideas is a classic example of “fools rush in, where …”.

Yes, you did list examples of things that seem illogical based on current understanding. But, we can't then toss logic to the wind. What I said was logical and correct.... everything which begins to exist has a cause.*

You either believe that...
1. Nothing 'created' everything
Or
2. Something powerful without beginning, timeless and uncaused created everything.*

Of all the various creation stories, including the atheist one, there can at most only be one possible that is true. If you can believe that there is an intelligent cause that created...then we can start comparing various stories eliminating ones that defy logic and science.

Is it logical and scientific for a fellow to take up residence in the belly of a fish for a few days?

Actually yes. I believe the evidence supports a powerful creator. I believe the evidence supports the truth of His Word.*

 

[Interplanner]

Cool! I remember that.*

Side Story. .. pulsars create some pretty fascinating sounds. There is the sound of a pulsar that has been used as a background sound in a worship song ' How Great is Our God'.*



Yes, you did list examples of things that seem illogical based on current understanding. But, we can't then toss logic to the wind. What I said was logical and correct.... everything which begins to exist has a cause.*

You either believe that...
1. Nothing 'created' everything
Or
2. Something powerful without beginning, timeless and uncaused created everything.*



Actually yes. I believe the evidence supports a powerful creator. I believe the evidence supports the truth of His Word.*

I used to work in lending, and one of the brokers in the office would go out to the west Olympic coast in his stainless-steel hulled boat built for higher waves than most fishermen bother with. One day he brought in a photo of a creature he had snagged because it was too bizarre to contemplate. It was one of these creatures that you see in fish tanks that have bellies that can swell up. Very irregular shape. However, it was about 6 ft diameter. The size of the mouth when open was just as much of a shock, as though the hinge dislocated. He had gone on the i.net to study up and sure enough it had a name, etc. It was 10 years back now, but the estimated size of the stomach at its max was enough for 2 humans.

 

[DavisBJ]

I don't buy it. Talk to the hand!! Their dating methods are incorrect. I don't care how red their spectrum is, for one thing. If don't believe in radioactive half-lives, when man could never live a half a life of it to even check if it were true. Just keep on tacking on the 000s. Millions, billions, trillions of years old. Ha!! Who is going to prove them wrong. None of us know what was happening a half million years ago. Who are you trying to kid? God said He created everything in six days, which includes the Universe, Earth, man and animals, etc. He didn't say it took a few billion years, dude. If He created them to look old, that is really His prerogative. ...

Michael

Michael, I again need to remind myself that I am conversing with a petulant infant that is lying on the floor kicking and screaming and throwing a temper tantrum, rather than having a meaningful exchange with a stable and logical adult. Accordingly, I will not attempt to disabuse you of your fantasy world filled with angels where your childish whims determine what reality is to you.

 

[DavisBJ]

re Gen 1-11.
This material concerns the nations. Genesis does not sustain attention on Abraham and his descendants until 12, but the same promise immediately shows up. But more to the point, Gen 1 was written to show to the neighboring nations around Israel who was actually Creator. God put Abraham and his descendants in the place that connects three contintents (sic) so that the foundational truth of Gen 1-11 would be spread to the world, and then later the people attending Pentecost would likewise spread the Gospel to "the known world."

In competition were:

Canaanite god of Molech: fertility cycles, child sacrifice. The annual cyle (sic) consisted of preserving ...

Wow. Then the Biblical text is not a simple, clear, and meaningful message to be taken to the world at large, but instead is an obscure abstract treatise that can be appreciated only by those who are learned in the subtleties of ancient languages, cultures, creation myths, and conversant with recent discoveries in astrophysics?

 

[patrick jane]

Wow. Then the Biblical text is not a simple, clear, and meaningful message to be taken to the world at large, but instead is an obscure abstract treatise that can be appreciated only by those who are learned in the subtleties of ancient languages, cultures, creation myths, and conversant with recent discoveries in astrophysics?

but endless "mutations" and evolving life forms explain how we're here and so advanced now ?

 

[6days]

But more to the point, Gen 1 was written to show to the neighboring nations around Israel who was actually Creator.

All scripture is given by God.....for us. Genesis 1 is the foundation to the gospel and many Christian doctrines. *

...later the people attending Pentecost would likewise spread the Gospel to "the known world."

You have difficulty accepting what God says throughout scripture, without trying to add to it or spin it. Where does your quote of 'known world' come from? Another addition?*

Gen 1 showed a God who keeps creation going by his power and word. He stopped whatever was there before which displeased him

You are adding things into His Word.

God does not say He was displeased, nor does He say there was a previous creation.

To this, Gen 1 says similarly that God is the creator and victor over the 'formless and void'*

You are adding things into God's Word.

This is what God's Word says...
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void;..."

The account continues to tell how over the next 6 days, God created, formed and filled. There is nothing about victory over formless and void.

To both of these, Gen 1 says that it was God who righted the world from the watery chaos that was 'formless and void.'

You are adding things into God's Word.

It says nothing about chaos.*

This is what God's Word says...
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void;..."

The account continues to tell how over the next 6 days, God created, formed and filled.*

 

[DavisBJ]

but endless "mutations" and evolving life forms explain how we're here and so advanced now ?

More correctly, mutations are one important element in evolution, which is responsible for the diversity of forms of life that exists.

I don’t know what “so advanced now” means. It may be that in the future we will be looked on as a rather ignorant and primitive culture, or alternately, we may do what has happened to most species – go extinct.

 

[patrick jane]

More correctly, mutations are one important element in evolution, which is responsible for the diversity of forms of life that exists.

I don’t know what “so advanced now” means. It may be that in the future we will be looked on as a rather ignorant and primitive culture, or alternately, we may do what has happened to most species – go extinct.

yes i suppose so. we may be looked back upon and seen as totally ignorant to reality and/or God. everybody can't be right -

Hebrews 11:3 KJV - Romans 8:14-15 KJV - Romans 8:16-17 KJV and 18

 

[DavisBJ]

Yes, you did list examples of things that seem illogical based on current understanding. But, we can't then toss logic to the wind. What I said was logical and correct.... everything which begins to exist has a cause.

Repeating what I said before - our experience is with things we have dealt with all of our lives. The logic that we have learned to apply in our world is often faulty when we are dealing with things vastly different than the world we see around us. As far as “creating” the universe we live in goes, we have one data point – the universe itself. I can’t imagine anything much more removed from the world we live in daily (and the logic we have learned to trust there) than the situation of “creating” a universe.

You either believe that...
1. Nothing 'created' everything
Or
2. Something powerful without beginning, timeless and uncaused created everything.

Not at all. I believe that our minds are currently ill-prepared to deal with the “physics” of eschatology. Work is underway to try to understand what “rules” must apply there, but that is on the fringes of testable natural science.

And I am awaiting your response to my request in post #12,855:

Define what preexisting means without implicitly or explicitly invoking time – because remember, time has not yet come into existence.

Until that response is satisfactory presented, any talk of something necessarily pre-existing to “cause” the universe is just childish babble.

I asked:

Is it logical and scientific for a fellow to take up residence in the belly of a fish for a few days?

Response:

Actually yes. I believe the evidence supports a powerful creator. I believe the evidence supports the truth of His Word.

I see what I think would be called your faith (in the correctness of a literal reading of Genesis). That is hardly what I would view as either logic or science.

One side question. Is there an automated way in the TOL tools of embedding nested quotes – like you often use where you show your original part of a post, then the respondent's comments, then your response to that response?

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Davis,

You don't seem to see any truth in what I've mentioned to you. You try to ignore it. What about God being like a circle, with no beginning or ending. Can't you imagine something besides a circle. Do you see how God favors a circle, seeing the most of the planets and stars are circular? Is the Earth or the Moon square? How about Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, and Saturn is shaped like a circle with circular rings going around it. Don't you get the message about being a circle at all?? You think it's me that is wrong, but no, it is you. You keep on thinking that the Universe goes on and on like man thinks he's discovered. Even oblong is quite circular, to be honest. What about Pluto, and Uranus, and Neptune and their moons... all circular. So who's fooling who? Do you think you know everything? I don't know everything. But I do know some things.

Best Wishes,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

yes i suppose so. we may be looked back upon and seen as totally ignorant to reality and/or God. everybody can't be right -

Hebrews 11:3 KJV - Romans 8:14-15 KJV - Romans 8:16-17 KJV and 18

Dear patrick jane,

You are right! We are pretty advanced now. And like Adam and Eve, we'd probably commit the same sin today. That does not measure your capacity to be an advanced people. It's just a weakness someone succumbs to. Like smoking a cigarette or having a drink. Yes, someday, most of us will be in a new Heaven and Earth, and life shall be glorious there, and God shall be the light for us, instead of the Sun. So evidently there is a light besides just the Sun's light. Man can't seem to get past that fact. When God said, "Let there be light," He was not talking about let there be a Sun. Man is a prisoner to what he thinks is possible, and what is truly probable. You're doing just fine. But do not dwell on waiting for that time to be. For there are a few millennia to happen before that. So live life for the day, not for tomorrow. Man has his hands full with just what a day brings. Enjoy the slowness and the silence. They are quite calming. You sure do look like me when I used to wear glasses. I don't wear them anymore because I got a cataract operation in both eyes and they sucked out the lens behind my cornea and replaced it with a new lens, so that I didn't need glasses anymore. Cool, eh? And my health insurance paid for it ALL.

Praise God!!

Michael

:guitar: :singer: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

 

[MichaelCadry]

All scripture is given by God.....for us. Genesis 1 is the foundation to the gospel and many Christian doctrines. *


You have difficulty accepting what God says throughout scripture, without trying to add to it or spin it. Where does your quote of 'known world' come from? Another addition?*


You are adding things into His Word.

God does not say He was displeased, nor does He say there was a previous creation.


You are adding things into God's Word.

This is what God's Word says...
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void;..."

The account continues to tell how over the next 6 days, God created, formed and filled. There is nothing about victory over formless and void.



You are adding things into God's Word.

It says nothing about chaos.*

This is what God's Word says...
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void;..."

The account continues to tell how over the next 6 days, God created, formed and filled.*

And Dear 6days,

What do you think of what I've said here? If you don't know, then that is a good answer. There's no way you could unless the Lord visited you. I'm sure that God visited Jesus in Spirit quite often indeed. And angels also. But unless that happened to you, you would not believe everything I have to say. So it's cool. What do you think of why so very much is circular. Doesn't that make you wonder? Do you think we have tons of galaxies surrounding our galaxy, so that the Universe is so vast that we can't see the end of it. Isn't God Splendid!! He makes it just out of man's reach! Man can't see to the end. How convenient and cool!!

Davis seems to think he's got the scoop on everything, but he is like a scientist without an understanding about a real God, who can cause a man to live in the belly of a fish and be coughed up by the fish onto land after three days. If Davis can't even believe that fish story, how is going to believe that the Earth coughed up Jesus after three days? Does he wonder why THREE days? Does he know about the three: the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost? Did not Jesus say He was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending? Well, you can let me know what you think in a PM, if you like. I would love your input!!

Much Love Coming Your Way, Dude!!

Michael

arty: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear alwight,

How are you doing today?! I hope that you're having a marvelous day!! It isn't morning here yet. It's after 2a.m. I know we probably don't agree on certain issues, but it's okay. Life is an adventure with many things to learn. I know that you don't believe that Our God is like a never-beginning or ending circle. And I know you believe there are thousands of galaxies out there surrounding ours. Only time will tell though, when God tells us to our face. I hope I don't sound irrational to you, but I can't help what I've learned.

Warmest Regards!!

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

How are you doing today?! I hope that you're having a marvelous day!! It isn't morning here yet. It's after 2a.m. I know we probably don't agree on certain issues, but it's okay. Life is an adventure with many things to learn. I know that you don't believe that Our God is like a never-beginning or ending circle. And I know you believe there are thousands of galaxies out there surrounding ours. Only time will tell though, when God tells us to our face. I hope I don't sound irrational to you, but I can't help what I've learned.

Warmest Regards!!

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

I really don't know what your evidence is that your God is anything Michael. But I do know that there is visible and electromagnetic evidence of other stars and galaxies. I tend to believe only that which is evidenced rather than bald assertions with none, that's just how I am.

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear Davis,

You don't seem to see any truth in what I've mentioned to you. You try to ignore it. What about God being like a circle, with no beginning or ending. Can't you imagine something besides a circle. Do you see how God favors a circle, seeing the most of the planets and stars are circular? Is the Earth or the Moon square? How about Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, and Saturn is shaped like a circle with circular rings going around it. Don't you get the message about being a circle at all?? You think it's me that is wrong, but no, it is you. ... Do you think you know everything? I don't know everything. But I do know some things.

Best Wishes,

Michael

Dear Michael,

I have heard elementary school students give pretty good explanations for why the planets are circular. And it assuredly had nothing to do with any abstract circular property of God. When you reach a 3rd grade level in science, then let’s talk again.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I really don't know what your evidence is that your God is anything Michael. But I do know that there is visible and electromagnetic evidence of other stars and galaxies. I tend to believe only that which is evidenced rather than bald assertions with none, that's just how I am.

Dear alwight,

A mirage is visible too, alwight. And electromagnetic evidence could not exist either. What electromagnetic evidence do you have in mind? See Heb. 11:3KJV... "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Michael

:angrymob:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Michael,

I have heard elementary school students give pretty good explanations for why the planets are circular. And it assuredly had nothing to do with any abstract circular property of God. When you reach a 3rd grade level in science, then let’s talk again.

Dear Davis,

You have heard no such thing from elementary school students. That's just something you made up.

Michael

:angrymob: