Creation vs. Evolution

[Daniel1611]

Daniel is trolling us. He has to be. No one could be that obtuse.

At least no one who has any sort of real education. Maybe he was homeschooled.

I went to public school Kindergarten through grade 12, and went to a public university. I've been through the indoctrination centers. Now I have a good job and can read anything that interests me, not just the state approved trash from public schools.

 

[gcthomas]

I went to public school Kindergarten through grade 12, and went to a public university. I've been through the indoctrination centers. Now I have a good job and can read anything that interests me, not just the state approved trash from public schools.

And in all that time none of your teachers thought to teach the scientific method, the best way to test ideas and to avoid being taken for a mug?

 

[seehigh]

If the earth is flat, how thick or thin is it? What is on the other side of the flat earth? How do you know the earth is flat if you don't know how flat it is? After all, we claim to know the circumference of the earth: http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcircumference.htm

Does the atmosphere wrap around the edge of the flat earth to the other side? Can we dig through to the other side? Does anyone live on the other side of the flat earth? If so, why haven't we made radio contact with them?

Why aren't there any other flat planets, or for that matter flat asteroids, flat moons, flat comets, flat stars, etc? Why would the earth be flat while every other planet, moon, star, etc is spherical?

How could the earth be flat? What are the natural forces that could possibly have produced such a shape? Every object in the observable universe over a few hundred miles in diameter is at least roughly spherical in shape, due to its own gravitational force. Why would the earth be any different? Gravity must necessarily be false for the earth to be flat, considering the earth's mass. Gravity requires an oblate spheroidal earth. If you insist that gravity is not a proven fact, then what do you have to replace it with?

Many proofs can be offered to demonstrate a spherical earth. For example, the earth appears as a disc on photographs taken from space, regardless of the vantage point. The only geometric solid which looks like a circle from any direction is a sphere.

A 100-foot-tall ship that is 15 miles away is not visible. That's because it is blocked by the curvature of the Earth. As it approaches, it "rises." First the tip of the mast is visible, then more and more of the ship comes into view as the ship gets closer:

Earth curvature line of sight:

These are the phases of the moon as seen in the Northern Hemisphere:

These are the same phases of the moon as seen in the Southern Hemisphere:

In the Northern Hemisphere the sunlit part of the moon moves from right to left:

In the Southern Hemisphere the sunlit part moves from the left to the right:

Also, in the Northern Hemisphere, the stars appear to rotate counterclockwise around the North Star, Polaris:

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However, in the Southern Hemisphere, the stars appear to rotate clockwise around Sigma Octantis:

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All of these things, taken together, are only possible if the earth is a sphere.

There you go, all those facts, yet Daniel will continue to pull the obtuse schtick.

I can imagine what it would have been liked to be a teacher of his in public school. Of course, with his perceptions it's much more likely that he was homeschooled. By someone who did not understand how to develop critical thinking in the studeEdit:


Edit:

I see that he professes to have gone to public school and university. We can only hope it was not one of those diploma mills.

 

[Daniel1611]

And in all that time none of your teachers thought to teach the scientific method, the best way to test ideas and to avoid being taken for a mug?

Chemistry is the most important part of my job, so I understand science. The funny thing is, you think you're smarter, but you're not. You can think you are. That's fine. But you're not.

 

[gcthomas]

Chemistry is the most important part of my job, so I understand science. The funny thing is, you think you're smarter, but you're not. You can think you are. That's fine. But you're not.

What is your job? What did you study at college?

 

[Daniel1611]

What is your job? What did you study at college?

I went to Indiana University of Pennsylvania and majored in English. Its hard to make money with an English degree so I went a different career path and just write in my free time. I'm the manager of the water treatment and distribution plant for the town I now live in. Unless you want a long story, don't ask how I went from English to being in charge of the water supply for a whole town. It is a long story. Ha ha. I love my job, though. It is stressful at times with all the regulations and just the responsibility of making sure you have clean water with all the right chemistry. You have DEP on your back constantly. It's stressful but great being your own boss. Good pay, excellent benefits, pension. I dig it.

What do you do?

 

[gcthomas]

I went to Indiana University of Pennsylvania and majored in English. Its hard to make money with an English degree so I went a different career path and just write in my free time. I'm the manager of the water treatment and distribution plant for the town I now live in. Unless you want a long story, don't ask how I went from English to being in charge of the water supply for a whole town. It is a long story. Ha ha. I love my job, though. It is stressful at times with all the regulations and just the responsibility of making sure you gave clean water with all the right chemistry. You have DEP on your back constantly. It's stressful but great being your own boss. Good pay, excellent benefits, pension. I dig it.

What do you do?

Nice job. :up:

I studied Aerospace Engineering at the University of Bristol. After a few Engineering jobs I now teach physics, maths and computer science.

I have been a keen astronomer and I can see the evidence that Galileo himself saw of Jupiter's moons. I have seen each planet move across the sky matching predictions from newton's gravitational theory and the sun centred model of the solar system.

I have derived the predictions myself from first principles and verified them by observation.

What have to some to verify the flat earth idea?

 

[noguru]

Chemistry is the most important part of my job, so I understand science. The funny thing is, you think you're smarter, but you're not. You can think you are. That's fine. But you're not.

The reality that you use some chemistry at a water treatment plant does not mean you have a solid grasp of science as whole. We saw very clearly, your lack of scientific understanding, when you used "smoke rising from a fire" as a means to negate gravity. You might have your bosses fooled in regard to your competence in science, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

And this is not about intelligence. It actually takes a very clever person to find seemingly feasible ways around and obvious conclusion. Problem with that is if you are not following the scientific method when dealing with science, then you are wasting your time and everyone elses.

 

[noguru]

Nice job. :up:

I studied Aerospace Engineering at the University of Bristol. After a few Engineering jobs I now teach physics, maths and computer science.

I have been a keen astronomer and I can see the evidence that Galileo himself saw of Jupiter's moons. I have seen each planet move across the sky matching predictions from newton's gravitational theory and the sun centred model of the solar system.

I have derived the predictions myself from first principles and verified them by observation.

What have to some to verify the flat earth idea?

Yes, but don't claim you are "smarter" than him.

:chuckle:

That is simply another immature retort designed to get an emotional reaction when poor methodology is pointed out.

 

[noguru]

I majored in philosophy and economics at the university level. Though I had a great science and math aptitude since I could read. I admit that I took longer than other students to learn to read because I am dyslexic. The positive side of dyslexia is that it usually means a person has a greater aptitude for geometry and logic. Like Daniel1611 I realized philosophy (since law was my initial aim but that changed) would not pay the bills. So I got an associates in computer programming and science. I was an IT/MIS/computer professional for 16 years, then diversified to various other related fields like marine refitting, shipping and transportation.

I have been to places, that if the world was not the sphere they propose, would not connect to nearby places. And I am pretty certain that all the people I met who sailed there from those nearby places were not in on some grand conspiracy.

In reality the last bastion of ideological refuge for flat earthers was negated when this hemisphere was discovered. And they continued on across the Pacific to Asia. It all connects, and the only way that can be, is on a sphere with a gradual curve. And yes, I do realize that many educated people already believed the earth was round.

I would be interested to see Daniel1611's model of the earth (being that he believes it is flat) and where he believes these "hidden lands" are located. Are there military installations on those perimeters stopping people from traveling there? He has claimed that might be the case in the Antarctic, but that does not seem to cover the vast majority of the "claimed" perimeter.

 

[Daniel1611]

Nice job. :up:

I studied Aerospace Engineering at the University of Bristol. After a few Engineering jobs I now teach physics, maths and computer science.

I have been a keen astronomer and I can see the evidence that Galileo himself saw of Jupiter's moons. I have seen each planet move across the sky matching predictions from newton's gravitational theory and the sun centred model of the solar system.

I have derived the predictions myself from first principles and verified them by observation.

What have to some to verify the flat earth idea?

Ok, so help me to understand this. I'm not messing with you. If I'm misunderstanding this, I want to know. So you're talking about Jupiter moving and what not. I get that. So here's my problem: the stars and planets all look like they're moving around the earth from our perspective. It appears that way. So how do we KNOW that the earth is moving around the sun and not the sun around the earth? Basically, what I'm saying is, how can we KNOW the solar system is heliocebtric and not geocentric. NASA images aside. I don't want to talk about the pictures at this point. Besides pictures and videos, how do we know? How could people know centuries ago?

 

[Daniel1611]

I majored in philosophy and economics at the university level. Though I had a great science and math aptitude since I could read. I admit that I took longer than other students to learn to read because I am dyslexic. The positive side of dyslexia is that it usually means a person has a greater aptitude for geometry and logic. Like Daniel1611 I realized philosophy (since law was my initial aim but that changed) would not pay the bills. So I got an associates in computer programming and science. I was an IT professional for 16 years, then diversified to various other related fields like marine refitting, shipping and transportation.

I have been to places, that if the world was not the sphere they propose, would not connect to nearby places.

Isn't it awful when you realize your main interests probably won't pay your bills? Somehow studying Baudelaire and writing symbolist poetry wasn't bringing in money so I had to change course, unfortunately. Sounds like you can kinda relate.

 

[gcthomas]

Ok, so help me to understand this. I'm not messing with you. If I'm misunderstanding this, I want to know. So you're talking about Jupiter moving and what not. I get that. So here's my problem: the stars and planets all look like they're moving around the earth from our perspective. It appears that way. So how do we KNOW that the earth is moving around the sun and not the sun around the earth? Basically, what I'm saying is, how can we KNOW the solar system is heliocebtric and not geocentric. NASA images aside. I don't want to talk about the pictures at this point. Besides pictures and videos, how do we know? How could people know centuries ago?

OK, I think the spherical earth idea is beyond doubt, and we can leave that aside.

There is an issue with KNOW, and it depends on what you mean by it. For science it means that the idea had been tested so much, and it fits so well with the concepts and principles that have been established before, and all the suggested alternatives have been so well dismissed through their predictions not matching observation, that to believe otherwise is perverse.

That is where the science of the solar system is - so many challengers have fallen by the wayside when compared to reality that trust in the concepts is compete.

In terms of history, I think that the intellectuals of pretty much every civilisation has concluded that the earth is approximately spherical. Only vulgar opinion had it flat through naive reading of the Bible. The orbit of earth was established through the careful observations of Johannes Kepler, noticing the odd retrograde periods in the orbits of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, which could only be elegantly explained through the mathematics of elliptical orbits of all the planets around the Sun.

 

[noguru]

Isn't it awful when you realize your main interests probably won't pay your bills? Somehow studying Baudelaire and writing symbolist poetry wasn't bringing in money so I had to change course, unfortunately. Sounds like you can kinda relate.

Actually when I was in primary school I wanted to be a marine biologist and travel the seas like this man and his son.

I loved fishing also.

But in my junior and senior year of high school I realized the demand for such work was minimal. And if I did not have a father that invented a version of the self contained underwater breathing apparatus (my father worked for the USPS) then I would probably not be traveling the world studying the behavior of marine animals. So I got a little more realistic. I had already discovered that I liked philosophy as it relates to technology, science, and human culture so I decided to major in philosophy/economics and get into law. In college I realized I would not like being a lawyer. But I had already started using PCs (that's what they were called back then) to do my papers and was good at it. So good that I made side money typing in and editing other students papers. Getting into information systems and IT was an easy leap from there. I do have an interest in literature (poetry and prose) also. But that came from being a musician and listening to all kinds of different music and lyrics, as well as learning about the culture from which it sprang.

Now there is this guy and I really think he took my job.

I forgot to mention that geography was another interest, and how everything connected. I ate up everything that I could read about marine biology, fisheries, culture, geology, watersheds, other animals like reptiles , amphibians...from publications like national geographic, field and stream, history on indigenous and transplanted species...

 

[Daniel1611]

I have a friend who studied marine biology and was an exceptional student. She just graduated college and is not working as a marine biologist. Must be a tough profession to get into.

 

[noguru]

I have a friend who studied marine biology and was an exceptional student. She just graduated college and is not working as a marine biologist. Must be a tough profession to get into.

Yes, it was when I was younger. I am not so sure about now because it seems to be a growing field. If you notice I have moved in the direction of my original interest. Years back I got my PADI certification and I started working for a marine consultant out of FL. So now I often get to travel around on his projects and in my spare time I dive and fish. I also do audio/video production and that has some travel as well.

How old are you?

 

[User Name]

So how do we KNOW that the earth is moving around the sun and not the sun around the earth?

If the earth is flat and the sun sets below the earth then the entire surface of the earth (the side we live on) should be in total darkness. Instead, we have time zones. When it is midnight on one side of the earth, it is noon on the other. How is that possible on a flat earth?

 

[noguru]

If the earth is flat and the sun sets below the earth then the entire surface of the earth (the side we live on) should be in total darkness. Instead, we have time zones. When it is midnight on one side of the earth, it is noon on the other. How is that possible on a flat earth?

There are so many things that a spherical earth model explains and a flat earth model does not explain. That is another good one.

 

[noguru]

Ok, so help me to understand this. I'm not messing with you. If I'm misunderstanding this, I want to know. So you're talking about Jupiter moving and what not. I get that. So here's my problem: the stars and planets all look like they're moving around the earth from our perspective. It appears that way. So how do we KNOW that the earth is moving around the sun and not the sun around the earth? Basically, what I'm saying is, how can we KNOW the solar system is heliocebtric and not geocentric. NASA images aside. I don't want to talk about the pictures at this point. Besides pictures and videos, how do we know? How could people know centuries ago?

One can tell by the exact movements of the planets, sun, moon, and stars in sky that the earth is not the pivot point (except the moon) for their revolutions/motion. It takes a fastidious effort, disciplined methodology and a rigorous analysis to determine this. But you know as well as I that the "easy answer" is not always the most accurate one.

I do find it ironic though, that you are asking such a question. Yet you claim to have a solid grasp of the fundamentals of science.

 

[Daniel1611]

Yes, it was when I was younger. I am not so sure about now because it seems to be a growing field. If you notice I have moved in the direction of my original interest. Years back I got my PADI certification and I started working for a marine consultant out of FL. So now I often get to travel around on his projects and in my spare time I dive and fish. I also do audio/video production and that has some travel as well.

How old are you?

I'm 26.