Creation vs. Evolution II

[COGTHW]

You can't understand it because you are using your wisdom. God is higher then your thoughts 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9 ; Seek God and truth will come. ; Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 1 Corinthians 3:18-19 Seek God that's why you so confused.


Obey Jesus Christ

 

[Jonahdog]

Seek God that's why you so confused.

I am not confused, so saith me. Love the saiths!!

 

[6days]

Yes out would have been cataclysmic for anyone in what is not the English Channel. But that is naturally locally cataclysmic.

The secular interpretations often come close to the truth. It is evidence of a cataclysmic event in the English channel. There is evidence of cataclysmic events around the world...evidence of the flood.

Nowhere doors the article imply the event was anything other than localised.

Yes GC..... We are talking about a very specific area. When we consider evidence around the world such as the white cliffs, we see how the world around us provides evidence for the truth of God's Word.

So, can you find any academic work supporting your humorously optimistic scenario?

Can you find clowns who believe in your humorous scenario? There... Now we have both used poisoning the well fallacy. Would you like to ask your question properly?

 

[6days]

6days, how come all the multiple radio dating methods show the Earth is over four billion years old?

They don't. Do you recall how I showed evolutionists doing radiometric backflips? They ignored the lab results and simply assigned dates that were consistent with their world view. Do you recall how evolutionists ignore C14 dating that contradicts their belief system? And... we could look at numerous other dating methods where evolutionists invent just so stories to try shoehorn data to fit their beliefs.
EX... Comets can't last the long time periods evolutionists imagine so they invent scenarios like this..." When the inhabitants (Imagined comets in waiting) known as the Oort Cloud interact with passing stars, molecular clouds, and gravity from the galaxy, they may find themselves spiraling inward toward the sun" (From space.com
It isn't science GC... It's a belief system with created stories.

 

[gcthomas]

The secular interpretations often come close to the truth. It is evidence of a cataclysmic event in the English channel. There is evidence of cataclysmic events around the world...evidence of the flood.

Yes GC..... We are talking about a very specific area. When we consider evidence around the world such as the white cliffs, we see how the world around us provides evidence for the truth of God's Word.

Can you find clowns who believe in your humorous scenario? There... Now we have both used poisoning the well fallacy. Would you like to ask your question properly?

There is scouring evidence of massive flows of water found from sonar scans of the bed of the English Channel, but none at all on the land either side. The 'secular' interpretation has the evidence for it, while your wild and rather hopeful extrapolation that it was part of a global flood is disproved by the lack of physical evidence on the south coast of England or the north coast of France.

You like to take evidence of loss of little floods that occurred at different points in history and pretend that that they have global coverage at one time. No evidence for that, you see.

 

[MichaelCadry]

As the series says, it flunks:

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/33/t/how-evolution-flunked-the-science-test

Two days ago there was a presentation just on bees that is to biology what THE PRIVILEGED PLANET is to astrophysics. Undeniably designed and created in a moment.

I see how our honeybees are being killed off by African honeybees. They bite them on the neck and behead them. Wasps do the same thing to honeybees or African bees.

Michael

 

[gcthomas]

They don't. Do you recall how I showed evolutionists doing radiometric backflips? They ignored the lab results and simply assigned dates that were consistent with their world view. Do you recall how evolutionists ignore C14 dating that contradicts their belief system? And... we could look at numerous other dating methods where evolutionists invent just so stories to try shoehorn data to fit their beliefs.

Um, not talking about C14. Try again.

EX... Comets can't last the long time periods evolutionists imagine so they invent scenarios like this..." When the inhabitants (Imagined comets in waiting) known as the Oort Cloud interact with passing stars, molecular clouds, and gravity from the galaxy, they may find themselves spiraling inward toward the sun" (From space.com
It isn't science GC... It's a belief system with created stories.

The theory of the Oort cloud is much stronger than your weak goddidit. What is your rationale for the presence of short and long period comets, the distributions of their major axes and the observed presence of comet belts around other stars?

 

[MichaelCadry]

It explains everything in its entirety.


Obey Jesus Christ

Dear COGTHW,

I think you did a wonderful job!!

 

[COGTHW]

Dear COGTHW,

I think you did a wonderful job!!

I thank God of heaven for His infallible knowledge.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I really don't care what Darwin's religious beliefs were, any more than I care about the beliefs of guy who cooks my dinner. Good science is good science and good food is good food, no matter who does it.

The question at hand was 6days' claim that Darwin tried to explain life/nature without God. But as the passage from On the Origin of Species showed, that claim is as false as can be.

FYI, I'm not a Christian so what the Bible says about things is irrelevant to me.



No, the jury is not out. There may be some adjustments and disagreements within relatively small ranges, but no one outside of a tiny number of religiously-motivated people are proposing a 6,000 year old age for H. sapiens.

Dear Jose,

I'll have you know that God created all that He had in mind in six days. You can't handle that the Earth seems to be older. Or that Heaven is younger than you think. God created it all that way. He created 'aged creations.' You can't seem to get past that. So do you think there has always been chickens for millions of years? Or did it evolve from a pterodactyl? They didn't make the boat ride. They were evil creatures, just like man. So God took them away with a global flood. Make of it what you'd like. I don't believe that your dinosaur bones are so very old and I believe that your dating methods suck. We know what God has ordained and if He says He made Adam old, He made the Earth as old also. God created the grass and the fruit trees before He created the Sun or Moon, and the stars in Heaven/Universe. If God says His Word went forth and did whatever He wished, He has a very genius mind. Surely it is a miracle to have the Moon navigating what's happening on Earth by circling it. I think it is awesome and cool. His imagination is incredible, but true. I know that He did it all in six days and then rested on the Sabbath. Saturday. Sunday is just the first day to go back to work. But just as God said man could work for six days and then take a rest, He meant for man to take a day off. Now we work five days at our jobs and then we work another day fixing up the house and washing the car, etc. So we are working six days. I know that man prefers to work at home than at a job setting. Well, I can't keep up here. I say what is true, and you don't believe, so whatever. I still care about you, of course!!

Your Fly Is Open,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Day (yom) has a variety of meanings in Hebrew and in English. I think I have said that several times. The meaning is always clear by the context in both languages.*
Haha...apologies... my post wasn't very clear. I will post it here now then try explain.
6days: "Outside of the creation account, the word yom/day is used hundreds of times in the OT. Can you show an example where the word 'day' might mean either a 24 hour day, or a long undetermined period of time? (I will help with the answer... the meaning is always easy to understand by the context). I supplied verses from Genesis 2 where the same word is used but with different meanings."

What I'm asking or saying is that we understand the meaning of the word by context. Are there instances outside of the creation account where the meaning is not clear? For ex. Could Jonah have been inside the fish for 3 undetermined periods of time? Could he have been in the fish for 3 daylight only periods? No...we understand by context.*

Yes...I did too. Thats why I assumed you had not read my post before you started arguing.

Dear 6days,

I prayed to God and asked Him about the situation. I was assured that He did it in six 24-hour days. So I have my answer, even if Kingdom Rose doesn't believe it. You all can debate whether I'm telling the truth or not. It doesn't change it for me. God speaks His Word and it does not come back to Him unfulfilled. I asked Him by the sign of rain that He sent at just the right time. I am allowed this, so that I can know certain things. I've made a mistake only twice in my whole life regarding this subject and a hundred times, I have been right. It's hard to not make a mistake or two along the way. See Rev. 11:6KJV. I know you don't believe it or me. So what am I supposed to do? Crawl into a hole? I ask of God and He doesn't give me a stone, but instead He gives me what I pray for. Any of you could do it if you would just have faith and believe. I have fasted before, and God always comes through for me. That's why my last Creation Thread was so successful. Because God was with my thread. If I was an a**, my thread would not be successful. No, I had many friends who made the thread so long. But the agnostics/ atheists still are not convinced nor do they believe there even is a God. I'd hate to see them go to such a terrible fate, so I try because they are also my brothers. My Christian friends don't need my help much, so I am here trying to help you agnostics make up your mind and see what's in the fourth dimension. There is one answer. The rest is all lies from Satan. Yeah, you don't believe in a devil either. Must be nice but your fate is not looking good. I helped one of you find an angel, so I know there is hope, once you're facing death. Otherwise, you are on your own believing in nothing. So it hasn't been a waste of my time.

Tons Of Love, From God And Me,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

God created all things on earth. That is what the scriptures proclaimes 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' Genesis 1:1 God created man 27 'So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.' Genesis 1:27


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Dear COG,

Welcome to TOL. I got in trouble when I first joined too. It happens. If God is with you, then accept the shortfall and wait until you are forgiven. The you won't be red anymore. You cannot come on here and cuss at everyone, or whatever you did wrong. Live and learn. Please hang in there until you are done being in the doghouse. This is the best website you will find. But you can't just come here and say bad things about others or the Scriptures. I learned the first time, and I haven't been banned since. Pay for your detention and don't blaspheme the Holy Ghost or say something bad about God or Jesus, etc. Even atheists are allowed here also. So you will fit in nicely once you learn the ropes. You'll be fine!

Much Love, In Jesus Christ,

Michael

 

[6days]

There is scouring evidence of massive flows of water found from sonar scans of the bed of the English Channel, but none at all on the land either side.

Why would you expect evidence of massive flows everywhere? That isn't the Biblical model.

You like to take evidence of loss of little floods that occurred at different points in history and pretend that that they have global coverage at one time. No evidence for that, you see.

Not little floods...but floods of "Biblical proportons" that secularists dismiss as separate events. For example here is a secular geologist discussing a flood he thinks covered only 100,000 Sq. miles.
"Robert Ballard, one of the world’s most famous underwater explorers, has set his sights on proving the existence of one of the Bible’s most well known stories....
"We went in there (Turkey)to look for the flood,” Ballard said. “Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under.
" The theory, the Guardian reports, is that a rising Mediterranean Sea pushed a channel through what is now the Bosphorus, submerging the original shoreline of the Black Sea in a deluge flowing at about 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls and extending out for 100,000 square miles."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...t-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html

 

[6days]

Um, not talking about C14. Try again.

Potassium / Argon is not C14. (Separate examples)

The theory of the Oort cloud is much stronger than your weak goddidit?

We could argue that God did it is a stronger argument than your nothing did everything.
But that is totally not what the argument was about. Comets are evidence that the universe is not billions of years old, since they can't last that long. People who want to believe in billions introduce hypotheticals to try salvage their belief system. Ex. of secular nonseince 'comets in waiting interact with passing stars and suddenly find themselves find themselves spiraling inward toward the sun...voila, a new comet'.

 

[gcthomas]

Why would you expect evidence of massive flows everywhere? That isn't the Biblical model.
Not little floods...but floods of "Biblical proportons" that secularists dismiss as separate events. For example here is a secular geologist discussing a flood he thinks covered only 100,000 Sq. miles.
"Robert Ballard, one of the world’s most famous underwater explorers, has set his sights on proving the existence of one of the Bible’s most well known stories....
"We went in there (Turkey)to look for the flood,” Ballard said. “Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under.
" The theory, the Guardian reports, is that a rising Mediterranean Sea pushed a channel through what is now the Bosphorus, submerging the original shoreline of the Black Sea in a deluge flowing at about 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls and extending out for 100,000 square miles."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...t-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html

So the only evidence you can find of a global flood is a regional flood where the mechanism is already known?

The English Channel land bridge breach flooded down a restricted passage, the flood you mention above is clearly local and happened at a different time. Poor effort 6days
You seemed so convinced there was good evidence, but is comes down to faith again. Never mind
How about the radio dating question?

 

[gcthomas]

Potassium / Argon is not C14. (Separate examples)

We could argue that God did it is a stronger argument than your nothing did everything.
But that is totally not what the argument was about. Comets are evidence that the universe is not billions of years old, since they can't last that long. People who want to believe in billions introduce hypotheticals to try salvage their belief system. Ex. of secular nonseince 'comets in waiting interact with passing stars and suddenly find themselves find themselves spiraling inward toward the sun...voila, a new comet'.

What mechanism caused the comets to take the orbits they have? The range of causes of perturbations of a hypothetical Oort cloud are well supported by gravitational analysis. You are very confident that you have a better hypothesis, so let's have the details, please.

 

[TIPlatypus]

Just my two cents on the whole debate: I don't think it is that important to the faith. This is because it is ancient history and does not have any effect on modern Christianity apart from what I will outline here.

Whether the world really was created in 6 days doesn't affect the wisdom we can gain for the story. For example, I think the story of Adam and Eve is a perfect analogy of children growing up, more on this later.
However, for defending the faith, it seems much more sensible to say it is an allegory. It is much more easily defensible.

Anyway, my opinion.
I think that genesis remains allegory until the time of Abraham. It seems logical that somewhere between Noah and Abraham, Genesis passes from allegory to history. More specifically, gen 11:10-32

There is some evidence for a flood in Mesopotamia, and I think that is a possible foundation for the story in Genesis, but the idea that all the animals in the world got put into one boat is a bit far fetched for me. It is the only part of this story that is scientifically testable, and I am sure we could not fit 2 of every kind of animal in the world on even the largest ship we could build.

Some interpretations of stories in Genesis:
The creation story highlights a few things for me. The first is that God is very human (which is logical because we are created in God's image; if we are like him, then he must be like us). Secondly that everyone, even God needs rest from their labour at some point.

The story of Adam and Eve is an analogy for childhood. At first we are innocent children, not knowing the difference between right and wrong, but as we grow up (and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) we begin to see the difference between right and wrong and are forced now to make our own living instead of having everything provided for us by our parents.

The tower of Babel story leads me to my belief that if the whole world were united, then we could do anything. We would reach the stars in no time, and make advancements that would be considered impossible today. It also leads me to believe that all mankind would never be united. Surely God would put an end to any attempts to do so.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter.

 

[TIPlatypus]

I forgot to mention evolution in all that. It will always remain a theory. This is because it is not testable by the scientific method. If you find a way to repeat the evolution of humans from apes or fish or whatever, then I will agree that evolution has been proven to be true. Of course, such an experiment would take hundreds of thousands of years and require huge resources and is not worth doing, and certainly won't be completed in my lifetime . Even if you do small experiments to test evolution (as have been done in the past), that is not enough. All you have shown is that that particular animal or micro-organism can adapt or evolve according to the theory. Of course this gives credibility to the theory, and I do accept on the basis of there being nothing better, but it will always remain a theory.

 

[Hedshaker]

.......I do accept on the basis of there being nothing better, but it will always remain a theory.

Do you understand the meaning of "Theory" in scientific terms?

Definitions from scientific organizations. ... A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.
Scientific theory - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

See here

Think of a scientific "theory" as the explanation of natural events based on the available evidence, such as:

The Theory of gravity

And:

Germ Theory

A Theory is as high as it gets in science. Of course there is no such thing as the theory of creationism since science doesn't concern itself with religious faith and magic.

The theory of evolution is relevant to every aspect of the science of biology.

Cheers

 

[patrick jane]

The Bible is a book of facts and details