Could You Train Yourself To Enjoy...

[glassjester]

You wait, glassjester will be 89 going on 90 and he'll still be going at this... :chuckle:

Look, neither Arthur nor I have taken an accusatory or mocking tone throughout this entire thread. Why steer it in that direction?

Contribute... or don't.

 

[annabenedetti]

Did you not read what you just quoted me, saying?

"You'll notice I don't even bring it up, except in response to your own posts about it.
You seem to want to discuss this more."

"Start one, if you want."

Now you're arguing with my asking whether this thread was your idea? Good lord....

It was your idea.

Carry on.

 

[ok doser]

You wait, glassjester will be 89 going on 90 and he'll still be going at this... :chuckle:

what do you think anna?


can people train themselves to learn to like things they don't initially?

 

[annabenedetti]

Look, neither Arthur nor I have taken an accusatory or mocking tone throughout this entire thread. Why steer it in that direction?

Contribute... or don't.

I'll contribute as I see fit, and you can ignore it... or not.

 

[glassjester]

Now you're arguing with my asking whether this thread was your idea?

Uh... no.
Read.

 

[glassjester]

I'll contribute as I see fit,

Fair enough.
Please do.

 

[glassjester]

It happens with foods, apparently.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...ow-do-we-grow-to-like-the-foods-we-once-hated

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes, you're right.

In fact, if you continued playing at the same skill level you had at the start, you most definitely would not have come to enjoy it.

In that sense, the thing you came to enjoy (skilled piano-playing) was not the thing which you didn't enjoy at the start (unskilled piano-playing).

Well :duh:

What this has to do with somehow being able to enjoy formulaic, boring pop crap is anyone's guess.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes, you're right.

In fact, if you continued playing at the same skill level you had at the start, you most definitely would not have come to enjoy it.

In that sense, the thing you came to enjoy (skilled piano-playing) was not the thing which you didn't enjoy at the start (unskilled piano-playing).

Considering I was aiming to become skilled then this is really kinda irrelevant.

 

[Arthur Brain]

:think:

perhaps he could accept his displeasure with horrible Beyonce songs and learn to enjoy ...


enjoyable beyonce songs! :banana:

You mean a blank disc?

lain:

 

[glassjester]

not the same as what you're arguing.

What this has to do with somehow being able to enjoy formulaic, boring pop crap is anyone's guess.

It doesn't.

That's why I said, "Yes, you're right."

 

[glassjester]

You mean a blank disc?

lain:

I am very fascinated by this article right now.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3915416/

 

[glassjester]

Specifically, the "EXPLAINING MUSICAL EXPERIENCE THROUGH A DYNAMICALLY MINIMAL MODEL OF SPREADING ACTIVATION" section.

Incredibly relevant.

 

[glassjester]

You have to want to change.

And from the article: "A clear prediction follows from this, namely that the greater the degree of conscious effort devoted to active processing of a given exposure to music so, it would be assumed, the greater the extent and richness of the nodes activated. In contrast, mere exposure to music with little or no ensuing conscious effort (i.e., spreading activation) would lead to relatively little activation of a limited number of nodes and an impoverished pattern of activation."

Dance around to it.
Sing along to it.
If you play any instruments, play that type of music on them.
Listen to it with other people who also enjoy it.

So far your argument seems to hinge more on positive/negative associations rather than one of being able to 'train' oneself to enjoy something that is completely unappealing.

From the article: "Studies in the social psychology of music have presented an increasingly sophisticated understanding of musical experience. Using spreading activation as the underlying mechanistic driver of musical experience, social context may be viewed as a facilitator or inhibitor of musical exposure. Being with a friend, having a role model, or wanting to be part of the in-group (Tarrant et al., 2001; Pitts, 2002) will influence the quantity and type of music to which one is exposed, but the music will also form associations with the context and social connections that are experienced during the music listening experiences. "

Or you don't really care for the people that tend to listen to that stuff.

From the article: "These social interactions lead to activation of relevant networks representing social engagement. The key point is that the linking of these cognitive networks with (pieces of) music, through the principle of spreading activation (which is pleasurable in an esthetic context) provides a mechanistic explanation of the context determinants of the RFM. "

 

[Arthur Brain]

And from the article: "A clear prediction follows from this, namely that the greater the degree of conscious effort devoted to active processing of a given exposure to music so, it would be assumed, the greater the extent and richness of the nodes activated. In contrast, mere exposure to music with little or no ensuing conscious effort (i.e., spreading activation) would lead to relatively little activation of a limited number of nodes and an impoverished pattern of activation."

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this is supposed to be. As a kid music quickly became a passion and I wasn't inactive in seeking it out. At home I was primarily exposed to classical music but among friends it was generally 'pop'. The latter just bored me. There wasn't anything harmonically interesting about any of it so I sought music in the library from more modern composers and any album that looked as though it may be away from the 'norm'. That's how I stumbled across the music of Messiaen and never looked back since. I was constantly searching for things that 'hit' that musical 'spot'.

From the article: "Studies in the social psychology of music have presented an increasingly sophisticated understanding of musical experience. Using spreading activation as the underlying mechanistic driver of musical experience, social context may be viewed as a facilitator or inhibitor of musical exposure. Being with a friend, having a role model, or wanting to be part of the in-group (Tarrant et al., 2001; Pitts, 2002) will influence the quantity and type of music to which one is exposed, but the music will also form associations with the context and social connections that are experienced during the music listening experiences. "

Or sometimes just being by yourself and thoroughly immersed in the sounds of a piece of music. Music has often been a personal thing for me, to be enjoyed in private although that's not to say I haven't enjoyed or shared it with others or enjoyed what others have shared with me. Case in point; I used to visit a friend when I was in my teens who was into a fair bit of music, most of it not for me to be honest but one day he said he had an album he knew I was gonna like. I was a bit dubious but I thought I'd give it a go and he fast forwarded to the third track. That was my introduction to '808 States' seminal album '90', listening to "Cobrabora" full blast on a CD player. I remember his smug but friendly grin at my loving the piece as well.

From the article: "These social interactions lead to activation of relevant networks representing social engagement. The key point is that the linking of these cognitive networks with (pieces of) music, through the principle of spreading activation (which is pleasurable in an esthetic context) provides a mechanistic explanation of the context determinants of the RFM. "

Your comment about "not really caring for the people who listen to 'Beyonce' really has nothing to do with any of this. I'm very good friends with people who listen to stuff that I wouldn't and also with ones who do. I didn't become friends with a cement mixer just because one day one happened to be going off and producing sounds that I just happened to like...

 

[glassjester]

I'm very good friends with people who listen to stuff that I wouldn't and also with ones who do.

Ok. The main question in this thread has been weather it is possible to intentionally like a song. Right?

The psych article suggests that it is possible to do so. Familiarity, social connection, positive associations, and willingness are all major factors in enjoyment of music.

All the same things I've been suggesting, actually.

Did you read the campfire example in the article?
Willingly build some familiarity and positive associations with "Single Ladies," and you will come to enjoy the song.

For the record - my choice of "Single Ladies" was totally arbitrary from the start.
I actually find that song pretty irritating.

I didn't become friends with a cement mixer just because one day one happened to be going off and producing sounds that I just happened to like...

Yeah... I'm not suggesting that you become friends with the sound, man.
Nor was that implied by the researchers in the article.

By the way, this reminds me very much a great sound I heard from a dryer exhaust, outside a dentist's office. I managed to record it and work it into some music I was making with a friend at the time. It was mesmerizing.

I get the whole gut reaction aspect.
But that's not nearly all that determines our musical taste.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Ok. The main question in this thread has been weather it is possible to intentionally like a song. Right?

It was a bit more than just 'one song' GJ although I suppose even the one would do.

The psych article suggests that it is possible to do so. Familiarity, social connection, positive associations, and willingness are all major factors in enjoyment of music.

And from an entirely musical perspective then so is being by yourself and being mesmerized by the harmonies/rhythms/melodies of a piece. I'm not arguing that music can't be bereft of associations or even a social aspect. I've had several good nights out with friends where the music didn't appeal to me at all but they were enjoyable times on an interaction level. Didn't impact on what 'hit' with me musically else I'd have 70's disco and a load of 'pop' in my music collection. I don't, because it fundamentally bores me on a musical score.

All the same things I've been suggesting, actually.

That don't undermine my position. I can associate a piece of music with a good time without intrinsically enjoying anything about the music in itself. Get the difference?

Did you read the campfire example in the article?
Willingly build some familiarity and positive associations with "Single Ladies," and you will come to enjoy the song.

For the record - my choice of "Single Ladies" was totally arbitrary from the start.

No I won't. Musically it'll simply be as banal as it already is regardless of associations, positive or negative. See all the above.

I actually find that song pretty irritating.

I'm finding your insistence that I can musically enjoy stuff that simply bores me to bits pretty much the same way...

Yeah... I'm not suggesting that you become friends with the sound, man.
Nor was that implied by the researchers in the article.

By the way, this reminds me very much a great sound I heard from a dryer exhaust, outside a dentist's office. I managed to record it and work it into some music I was making with a friend at the time. It was mesmerizing.

I don't think any of them were implying that someone with an aversion to bland commercial pap could somehow train themselves to enjoy it either GJ. It's not as though people don't associate things with times in their life including music, of course they do. But you've been suggesting that I can enjoy a piece of music in itself that I find completely banal. Do you get why I'm infuriated with this now?

I get the whole gut reaction aspect.
But that's not nearly all that determines our musical taste.

Well, mine never has or will be determined by whatever anyone else argues, the same as having absolute pitch wasn't an opinion or choice or having a sense of colour for each note of the scale and chords either. You wanna continue this then hey, don't see that it's going anywhere though.

 

[patrick jane]

It was a bit more than just 'one song' GJ although I suppose even the one would do.



And from an entirely musical perspective then so is being by yourself and being mesmerized by the harmonies/rhythms/melodies of a piece. I'm not arguing that music can't be bereft of associations or even a social aspect. I've had several good nights out with friends where the music didn't appeal to me at all but they were enjoyable times on an interaction level. Didn't impact on what 'hit' with me musically else I'd have 70's disco and a load of 'pop' in my music collection. I don't, because it fundamentally bores me on a musical score.



That don't undermine my position. I can associate a piece of music with a good time without intrinsically enjoying anything about the music in itself. Get the difference?



No I won't. Musically it'll simply be as banal as it already is regardless of associations, positive or negative. See all the above.



I'm finding your insistence that I can musically enjoy stuff that simply bores me to bits pretty much the same way...



I don't think any of them were implying that someone with an aversion to bland commercial pap could somehow train themselves to enjoy it either GJ. It's not as though people don't associate things with times in their life including music, of course they do. But you've been suggesting that I can enjoy a piece of music in itself that I find completely banal. Do you get why I'm infuriated with this now?



Well, mine never has or will be determined by whatever anyone else argues, the same as having absolute pitch wasn't an opinion or choice or having a sense of colour for each note of the scale and chords either. You wanna continue this then hey, don't see that it's going anywhere though.

Your musical tastes are very sophisticated :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

If somebody decides that something feels good or makes them feel good they learn to enjoy it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Your musical tastes are very sophisticated :chuckle:

Just saying it how it is. I love harmony in music and oftentimes complex because it just sounds so great and 'colourful', including a lot of dissonance.