Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you not aware that some things can change? Later in his ministry Paul said that there is but one baptism and it is obvious that baptism is the one mentioned at 1 Corinthians 12:13.
ECT Confusion Over Being "Born Again"
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Are you not aware that some things can change? Later in his ministry Paul said that there is but one baptism and it is obvious that baptism is the one mentioned at 1 Corinthians 12:13.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
How does this preclude water? Was Cornelius baptized before or after he received God's Spirit?
If Cornelius had already received God's Spirit why was he then baptized?
Paul is not teaching literal physical water immersion; it is all in allegorical, metaphorical, symbolic, and idiomatic language, otherwise why immerse for the dead? (1Cor 15:29)? Are those whom you have been forced to "put to sleep" and to mortify, that is, your own "unruly members" which are upon your own earth-land, those unruly members of your own "household" which are fallen asleep in Messiah; are they perished? (1Cor 15:17-18)? This is that immersion for the dead; for it concerns the washing of the water into the Word, (Eph 5:26, Heb 10:22). If indeed you mortify or put to death your members upon the earth, (Col 3:5), and through the Spirit of the Testimony of Messiah you do mortify or put to death the deeds of the body, (Rom 8:13), then you have put those "members of your household" to sleep; and they sleep in Messiah because you will have followed his doctrine from his parables and sayings found in the Gospel accounts, (just as Paul likewise did). And when the Son of Man comes you will not prevent or precede them which you have been forced to put to sleep; for the dead in Messiah are raised first, (1Thes 4:15, 16). It is all parables and allegories based in the commandments of the Master, which are found in the Gospel accounts, and it has nothing to do with literal physical water immersion except through the symbolism thereof.
Hi and I believe that the sequince was change to show , that a change is comming !!
In Acts 1:5 Israel had ONLY 2 Baptisms , #1 , Water Baptism #2 and BAPTIZED BAPTIZO with HOLY SPIRIT POWER !!
dan p
Who do you think baptizes us? By whose authority are we baptized?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight" (Mt.3:1-3).
The people were being prepared to serve the Lord Jesus "in holiness and righteousness" (Lk.1:17,74-75).
The rite of water baptism was a repentance from that sinful life style so they could serve the Lord in holiness and in righteousness.
God's Truth
New member
You have to hear the gospel about Jesus dying for sins before you can repent of those sins and have them washed away.
OK, so who told John to baptize with water?
turbosixx
New member
When they are water baptized by a man, then the Spirit adds them. That's what he means by baptized into Christ by the Spirit. When a person is water baptized in the name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit adds them as we see here.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
The Holy Spirit does the adding in connection with water baptism.
The relationship between the water and the Spirit is clearly seen in scripture.
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Notice here Peter says be baptized and you will receive the Spirit.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The two go together as we see here.
Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
Here when Paul finds out these men didn't receive the Holy Spirit, he questions their baptism!
Acts 19:2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then he doesn't give them the Holy Spirit until they are baptized in the name of Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Paul baptized these people in the name of Jesus just as Jesus instructed the 12 to do.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
When Paul baptized the men in Acts 19, this was on his last journey and about 2-3 years before his arrest. He never stopped baptizing people in the name of Jesus.
More of the water and Spirit relationship.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
1 Jn. 5:7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The rite of water baptism was for the purpose of preparing the people to serve the lord Jesus in his earthly kingdom. That kingdom has been postponed and will not be at hand until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth (Lk.21:27-31).
So the orignal purpose for water baptism is no longer in view.
Hi and in Eph 4:5 is written , ONE BAPTISM !!
Does it mean ONE ? HEIS ?
In the KJV does it say BAPTIZO ??
No it does NOT !!
It says BAPTISMA and means one BAPTIZER !!
BAPTIMA is also used in ROM 6:4 and NOT baptizo / baptism !!
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Before a person could be baptized with water they had to first believe. And here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe;
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."
So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
By the time when a person has changed his sinful lifestyle he is already saved.
turbosixx
New member
You are quoting verses before Jesus' death, burial and resurrection that are looking forward to his blood. Jesus' sacrifice inaugurated a new and living way by his blood. After he was given all authority, he told the 11 how to make Christians, baptizing them in his name.
If what you say is true, then this makes no sense. Acts 19:1-6 When Paul finds out they didn't receive the Holy Spirit when they believed, why would he question their baptism? He doesn't question their belief, so why didn't they have the Holy Spirit? Why does he have to baptize them in Jesus name first to give them the Holy Spirit?
Give me scriptures after the D,B&R to point out my error.
Ask Mr. Religion
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[FONT="]Jerry,
When I speak of regeneration I often follow it with a parenthetical, "born-again" as this is what the typical non-Calvinist uses. Unfortunately, the use of born-again is confusing as it—to us Reformed—generally refers to the entire corpus of salvation, the Golden Chain of redemption: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.
The Golden Chain of Redemption:
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Spoiler
In other words, we are saved, yet are being saved, in the now and not yet parlance of Scripture.
“Now, but not yet” describes the tension between the benefits of redemption already experienced in this life and those benefits which await us at the consummation. Christians enjoy the “alreadyness” of the Atonement—remission of sins, adoption as children, the indwelling Holy Spirit, etc. However, there is a sense in which we will not see these realities in totality until the last day (1 John 3:2), and so they always remain objects of faith. For instance, the believer already has eternal life (John 5:24), but he is not yet physically resurrected. Likewise, the church is a fellowship of persons who are both new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and still imperfect sinners. We await our glorification and the destruction of our sinful natures in the last day.
To be as plain as I can be, the unbeliever must first be given some spark of spiritual life, regenerated, before that person is now in possession of the moral ability to believe. As I have noted in previous posts that you seem to overlook, before this instantaneous temporal event of regeneration, the unbeliever is not able to believe given their state of moral inability (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). The unbeliever's moral inability is as a result of the fall of Adam, whose sin has been imputed (judicially declared) by God to all of Adam's progeny. We are born sinners and sin because we are sinners. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning.
Now this spark of regeneration, if you will, comes from the efficacious grace of God the Holy Spirit. When does the spark of regeneration ordinarily take place? By the word of God or through the word of truth as stated in the First Peter and James citations you noted above (and many more elsewhere Scripture). In other words it is ordinarily by the hearing of the Good News that those chosen by God are made able and are brought into the kingdom. This hearing of the Good News is but one of the means that God uses to temporally achieve His eternally decreed ends. This is the proper way of viewing the passage you have cited. It is not faith that causes re-birth, rather it is re-birth (regeneration) that yields firstfruits: faith. Faith is evidence you are saved, it is not the cause of your salvation, for God alone is the cause.
To claim we Calvinists or Reformed folk have it backwards is to misunderstand exactly what is going on soteriologically. The non-Calvinists assumes that something within himself, some minute seed of righteousness remains within their corrupted images of God, even after the Fall of Adam. This seed of so-called prevenient grace thereby enables the person to eventually believe when hearing the Good News. Yet, if this is the case, one wonders why not all believe given that all are given the same measure of this prevenient grace. Either they do not each get the same measure, and therefore God is favoring some over others (making a sort of non-Calvinist form of election), or the person who believes can boldly claim to be more discerning, more wise, etc., than his non-believing neighbor, hence having reason to boast based upon merit.
Unfortunately, this sort of view ultimately results in what Spurgeon observed many years ago:
“Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”
Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.
Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.
Of course Mr. Spurgeon was speaking hyperbolically, but the essential truth contained therein accurately describes the view that holds man can believe his way into the Kingdom of God. This evidence for this is seen in statements such as this (emphasis mine):
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Clearly, the discerning reader will have their hearts pricked by such a view, and rightly so.
On the other hand, we Reformed or Calvinist's take Scripture's high view of the sovereignty of God (Daniel 4:35; Jeremiah 32:17; Matthew 28:18; Ephesians 1:22; Ephesians 1:11; Isaiah 14:24, 27; Isaiah 46:9, 10, 11; Genesis 18:14; Job 42:2; Psalm 135:6; Isaiah 55:11; Romans 9:20, 21) and accordingly give God all the credit for our salvation (the entire Golden Chain).
We also, I believe, rightly understand the teachings of Scripture about the full effects of the Fall of Adam, recognizing that unless God does something to the fallen man, none would ever choose the righteousness of God. We give thanks to God for His mercy in choosing some out of the entire fallen lump of humanity in Adam to be redeemed, not because God saw something good in the chosen by peeking down the corridors of time, but simply because of His own good counsel to set His preferences upon (God's love) another. Hence, those not so chosen are left in their state of sin and ongoing sinning, never to be the subject of any of God's saving graces[/FONT].
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AMR[/FONT]
God's Truth
New member
I gave scriptures that say it is to GOD FEARING Gentiles, and those who do right.
A person hears the message of Jesus dying for their sins and they agree to stop sinning and live obeying him.
Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.
Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
The Father told John to baptize with water.
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, "Upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit."*And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God. (John 1:33-34)
Who told Paul not to baptize with water? What verse?
Who is the one BAPTIZER? Who baptized Paul? Was it a man?
Hi and the BAPTIMA is the Holy Spirit , in Rom 6:4 and in Eph 4:5 where BAPTIMA is found !!
Paul was baptized by the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12:3 !!
The Holy Spirit baptized / PLACED , Paul !!
dan p