Which comes first?
ECT Confusion Over Being "Born Again"
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Which comes first?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
They are the same thing.
Truster doesn't trust me . . . . :second:
Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered. A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring.
begotten - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten
begotten - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you reject the meaning of the Greek word translated "begotten" which I provided?
The Greek word gennaō is translated "begotten" and here it is used of being born:
"And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born (gennaō)" (Mt.2:4).
Why do you reject the meaning of the Greek gennao which can mean conceive. Jesus was conceived before he was born.
It is written: "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matthew 1:20-21)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never denied that is one of the meanings. Tell me why we should not think that the words of the Lord Jesus when He said "born again" was not the same meaning when Peter used the same words.
The word itself has the basic meaning of "bring forth", so both conceive and born can be expressed with that word.
But it is not only used of a conception or birth of a living being, but can refer to abstract things also.
2 Timothy 2:23 KJV
(23) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
Same word (gennao) as conceive and born.
In other words, ,,,,,
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do bring forth stifes.
You asked, "Is there any reason not to think that in this instance when a person believes the gospel then at that moment they are born again?"
My answer was that a person must be begotten before they are born to which you said they are the same thing. I'm not sure what you meant by that, obviously begotten and born are not the same thing.
Life begins at conception, not birth.
We are begotten as a spirit person at baptism when we become a new being and the old person dies.
We are begotten as a spirit person in order to be born as a spirit person.
This is pretty elementary.
And the proper meaning must be determined by the context in which the word is used.
Jerry asserts conception and birth are the same thing. Foolish and unlearned assertions avoid, knowing that they do bring forth strife.
:up: Yep.
But sometimes the context is not expressly given for what each word MUST mean and is left ambiguous
He doesn't mean they (conceive and birth) happen at the same time, but they do 'mean' the same thing - bring forth.
Jesus was conceived (brought forth) in the womb of Mary, and was born (brought forth) from the womb of Mary.
Just as an idea can be conceived (in man in thought), and also born (from man in action).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
On this forum I have maintained that a person is born of the Spirit when they are conceived.
But I still cannot understand why you think that the words "boen again" refer to different things when the Lord used them than they do when Peter used them.
In post 32 Jerry said, "On this forum I have maintained that a person is born of the Spirit when they are conceived."
That sounds to me like a person is born of the Spirit and conceived at the same time, which is absurd.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
As Tambora noted, the Greek word translated "born" can mean "to bring forth." So we can understand when a person is conceived the Spirit comes forth unto that person.
Resurrection is also a bringing forth of a person. Baptism pictures our death, burial, and resurrection. We are brought forth as a new person and we bury the former person in a watery grave.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So are you saying that a person is born of the Spirit when he submits to the rite of water baptism?
No, conceived as a spirit person to be born at Christ's coming.
The holy Spirit is associated with baptism. If a person does not have the Spirit of Christ the person does not belong to Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Today there is only one baptism (Eph.4:5) and that baptism is performed by the One Spirit (1 Cor.12:13). it is not one with water.
turbosixx
New member
I believe what Jesus means by being "born again" is that the Jews trusted in the fact that they were God's people by birth.
Luke 3:8 Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
Pedigree means nothing in becoming a believer.
Jews being born into God's people doesn't mean they knew God, they had to be taught. That is the reason God says Heb. 8:11“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’(Christians must know God in order to become a Christian)For all will know Me, From the least to the greatest of them.
Yes, we are born of the Spirit.
Gal. 4:28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Correct! Christians are already born again (born of the Spirit) and that happened when they believed the gospel (1 Pet.1:23-25).