Concerning the feasts of the LORD, these are MY FEASTS - Lev. 23

[beameup]

Hello? Anybody home?
Yes, some blood sacrifices were for atonement. But no, not all blood sacrifices were for atonement.

It is not that difficult.

OK. The record left by YHWH in his written word, give us clues as to the origins of the sacrificial atonement system for sin.
The earliest record that directly links sacrifice for sin is from the book of Job. That being the case, it set the precedent for us to note.
Note that Cain offered an unacceptable sacrifice to YHWH and it was a grain-offering. We know that grain-offerings, for certain things, are acceptable to YHWH.
Compare that with Abel's offering of a lamb, which was acceptable to YHWH. Should we assume that Cain was totally ignorant of what YHWH required? I doubt it.
So, following the Exodus from the border of Egypt, Moses is given a lot of precise information by YHWH concerning the various "offerings" and their purpose.

At any rate, it is a moot-point because the Temple no longer stands, and the Levites are out of a job. So, how will man atone for sin before YHWH?
Many here would state that a once-and-for-all eternal sacrifice was made, and that the preceding were mere "shadows" and "rehearsals".

 

[chair]

... So, how will man atone for sin before YHWH?

Ever read the Book of Jonah?

 

[beameup]

Ever read the Book of Jonah?

Yes.
He was punished for disobedience.
Then when he "got his mind right" he went to the Assyrians and they repented.
A couple of generations later, the Assyrians wiped out Israel with extreme cruelty.

 

[chair]

Yes.
He was punished for disobedience.
Then when he "got his mind right" he went to the Assyrians and they repented.
A couple of generations later, the Assyrians wiped out Israel with extreme cruelty.

Did you happen to notice that the people of Ninveh repented and were forgiven- without sacrifices?

 

[beameup]

Did you happen to notice that the people of Ninveh repented and were forgiven- without sacrifices?

It doesn't mention whether or not Jonah fully introduced them to Judaism (as proselytes).
I don't believe that sacrifices alone ever equaled forgiveness.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit:
a broken and a contrite heart, O God,
thou wilt not despise. Psalm 51:17

 

[chair]

It doesn't mention whether or not Jonah fully introduced them to Judaism (as proselytes).
I don't believe that sacrifices alone ever equaled forgiveness.

NO- it says nothing at all about conversion. Nor did I intend anything of the sort. Nor is it relevant.

What is relevant is that they were forgiven without sacrifices. So sacrifice is clearly not the only way to obtain forgiveness.

 

[chair]

I gather that you see my point, but just don't want to admit it publicly. It's good that you can consider changing your position on these issues. Not everybody would be able to do that.

 

[beameup]

NO- it says nothing at all about conversion. Nor did I intend anything of the sort. Nor is it relevant.

What is relevant is that they were forgiven without sacrifices. So sacrifice is clearly not the only way to obtain forgiveness.

Their lives were spared and the city of Nineveh was spared from destruction:
Then Jonah began to go through the city one day’s walk; and he cried out and said, “Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”
Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them.
[King of Ninevah] “Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish.”
When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. - Jonah 3:4-5, 9-10

[YHWH] “Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?”
Jonah 4:11

History shows that the Assyrians went on to become the most fierce and cruel warriors known in history, and eventually destroyed the Northern Kingdom, uprooting the people and moving other nationalities into Israel.

 

[chair]

Their lives were spared and the city of Nineveh was spared from destruction:...

So you agree that they were forgiven without having to bring blood sacrifices. Great.

 

[beameup]

So you agree that they were forgiven without having to bring blood sacrifices. Great.

Forgiven of what? They repented as a culture (obviously they, as a people, were up to something quite evil... like Sodom & Gomorrah).
They repented and so God repented, but it doesn't imply a universal salvation of all Ninevites. Besides, God says at the end that the Ninevites still don't know their right-hand from their left-hand (still spiritually ignorant).
This probably accounts for the reason why Assyria, not long after, became an extremely cruel and merciless culture and destroyed their enemies in the most evil of ways.
Afterall, they created impalement (crucifixion), nailing enemies to trees.

 

[chair]

Forgiven of what? They repented as a culture (obviously they, as a people, were up to something quite evil... like Sodom & Gomorrah).
They repented and so God repented, but it doesn't imply a universal salvation of all Ninevites. Besides, God says at the end that the Ninevites still don't know their right-hand from their left-hand (still spiritually ignorant).
This probably accounts for the reason why Assyria, not long after, became an extremely cruel and merciless culture and destroyed their enemies in the most evil of ways.
Afterall, they created impalement (crucifixion), nailing enemies to trees.

I really do not understand what the eventual history of Assyria has to do with this. Nor do I see what "universal salvation" has to do with it. They were sinners. They repented. They prayed. They fasted. They were forgiven.

 

[clefty]

I really do not understand what the eventual history of Assyria has to do with this. Nor do I see what "universal salvation" has to do with it. They were sinners. They repented. They prayed. They fasted. They were forgiven.

Rather mercy than sacrifice indicates that the latter was intended to teach the former...

People place much too much emphasis on the sacrificial system ascribing to it some magic power or mystical potion...

Blood remained blood... and never atoned for anything in and of itself...He was the forgiver...it was He who atoned...not the blood or death or burning flesh...He saved...not the blood

The sacrificial system was merely a system of symbols and actions that testified of the faith and obedience of the participant...it revealed the contrite heart but in and of itself did not save...they were saved for their obedience...it taught about holy and unholy clean and unclean it established a structure and system and pattern and way of life...it warned of death and punishment and gave a means by which people could do something specific to show their love and fidelity...

Ascribing to the blood power it did not have is idolatry...and spilling it without the appropriate attitude or sentiment was something He eventually HATED...and like idolatry considered an abomination

Sacrifices were always merely to point to our sin our desire to be saved from it and who our Savior is NEVER something by which we merit salvation...

It was always about faith first then obedience

Sacrifices were for sins we didn't even know we committed...how can we confess and restore unknown debt/sin? For sin known there was restitution...

He forgives...the blood has no power in and of itself...innocent blood as a symbolic substitute for our own...and His spilt blood has no magic power either but merely testified He who was innocent could now be our advocate and savior...

sin is immaterial how can it be washed away? Or placed on the head of a goat?

They were to learn mercy...

 

[chair]

Rather mercy than sacrifice indicates that the latter was intended to teach the former...

People place much too much emphasis on the sacrificial system ascribing to it some magic power or mystical potion...

Often Christians (I am not one, in case you are not aware) get caught up in this blood thing, since otherwise- why did Jesus have to die? He was the ultimate blood sacrifice- and if you say that God can be merciful and forgive without dead animals (or humans) and buckets of blood- why do you need to have Jesus die on the cross?

 

[clefty]

Often Christians (I am not one, in case you are not aware) get caught up in this blood thing, since otherwise- why did Jesus have to die? He was the ultimate blood sacrifice- and if you say that God can be merciful and forgive without dead animals (or humans) and buckets of blood- why do you need to have Jesus die on the cross?

Many Christians conflate so much as they are indeed ignorant to the feasts and festivals and sacrificial system yes it is true...

Destroying the Old Testament to prevent circumcision they have instead castrated themselves from deeper and more potent understanding and appreciation for what was done for them by Someone Who came to RESTORE things to their proper position and function not start something brand new...

John the Baptist was right...He is the lamb come to take away the sin of the world he just didn't clarify when sin ultimately would be removed by this Lamb...

Not at Passover...that wasn't even a sin offering

 

[jamie]

People place much too much emphasis on the sacrificial system ascribing to it some magic power or mystical potion...

Chair's point is that animal sacrifices are superflous and they are not an aspect of Judaism today. Judaism today says no blood is required and that Christians are mistaken to think Jesus' blood has meaning.

 

[beameup]

As far as I know, "Moses" has not been rescinded.
Just because sacrifices have stopped for 2,000 years,
doesn't mean that "blood sacrifices" won't be resumed shortly in Jerusalem.
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
and I have given it to you upon the altar to make
an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood
that maketh an atonement for the soul." - Leviticus 7:11

Temple Institute - rehearsals of sacrifice by Levites, in anticipation of the rebuilding of the Temple

 

[chair]

Chair's point is that animal sacrifices are superflous and they are not an aspect of Judaism today. Judaism today says no blood is required and that Christians are mistaken to think Jesus' blood has meaning.

I go further than this. Even in Biblical times there was forgiveness without sacrifice.

 

[beameup]

God himself designed every detail of the FEASTS. The FEASTS are God's Feasts. The FEASTS are "rehearsals" of future events (ie: prophecy) or partially fulfilled events.

 

[chair]

God himself designed every detail of the FEASTS. The FEASTS are God's Feasts.

Yes. That fits in with the verses.

The FEASTS are "rehearsals" of future events (ie: prophecy) or partially fulfilled events.

No. This is just stuff that you made up.

 

[beameup]

No. This is just stuff that you made up.

מִקְרָא miqrâʼ, mik-raw'

So, what is God trying to tell us with the details of these Holy Convocations qodesh miqra'... or does God even have a "point" IYO?

Temple Institute Levites rehearse animal blood sacrifice