Coitus Interruptus... Flirty Turtles, Fossils and the Flood

[6days]

Because people like Stripe insist on Genesis being literal and I am just exploring the limits of what is literal and what is allegorical,

No... I don't believe that is what you are doing. You are trying to justify your unbelief of what scripture plainly says. *You seem to think God said He created in six days, but he meant billions of years.
*You seem to think God could not create light until after He created the sun. (That God gave us the wrong order of how He created)
*You seem to think God created through a process of pain, death, suffering and extinctions and called that "very good".
*You seem to think that Christ did not really need to go to the cross and conquer physical death, since death was not a result of sin.
*You seem to think that Jesus was confused when He referred to the beginning of creation....that He meant when humans evolved from 'monkeys' 14 billion years after "the beginning".

Cabinet..... you aren't just exploring the limits of what is allegorical. You are introducing compromise to the Gospel message. That compromise in Genesis effects every Christian doctrine, and has lead millions of youth to reject the Gospel. After all.....the virgin birth and the resurrection can be taken as allegorical too, when treat scripture like a pick and choose buffet meal.

 

[George Affleck]

Per stripe, I'm going to my local hardware store to get some dirt, and Portland cement, then find some turtles and make some fossils.

Did you know that shale is one of the ingredients in Portland cement?

 

[George Affleck]

Beginning is a relative term. As I said, I believe, I just understand it differently than you. It is an understanding that in no way lessons Who and What God is.

I suggest that your "I believe" is relative because it is conditional on what you are comfortable with. It doesn't matter what you are comfortable with. It doesn't matter what I am comfortable with. What matters is what God says.

 

[Stripe]

Per stripe, I'm going to my local hardware store to get some dirt, and Portland cement, then find some turtles and make some fossils.

Knock yourself out.

Because people like Stripe insist on Genesis being literal and I am just exploring the limits of what is literal and what is allegorical,

Nope. Genesis is historical narrative.

Darwinists will say anything to keep the discussion away from the evidence.

 

[CabinetMaker]

No... I don't believe that is what you are doing. You are trying to justify your unbelief of what scripture plainly says. *You seem to think God said He created in six days, but he meant billions of years.
*You seem to think God could not create light until after He created the sun. (That God gave us the wrong order of how He created)
*You seem to think God created through a process of pain, death, suffering and extinctions and called that "very good".
*You seem to think that Christ did not really need to go to the cross and conquer physical death, since death was not a result of sin.
*You seem to think that Jesus was confused when He referred to the beginning of creation....that He meant when humans evolved from 'monkeys' 14 billion years after "the beginning".

Cabinet..... you aren't just exploring the limits of what is allegorical. You are introducing compromise to the Gospel message. That compromise in Genesis effects every Christian doctrine, and has lead millions of youth to reject the Gospel. After all.....the virgin birth and the resurrection can be taken as allegorical too, when treat scripture like a pick and choose buffet meal.

Whether the world is 6000 or 60 billion years old, it does not change what Jesus did for us so that we could be with Him and His Father. That is Christian doctrine. The age of the Earth is not.

From the point of view of an observer on Earth, the order of the creation of light and the sun is in the correct order.

Physical death is not the worst thing that can happen. In fact, to be absent from the world is to be present with the Lord. Where would you rather be? Christ concurred spiritual death, the only death that matters as it separates us from God. Forever.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I suggest that your "I believe" is relative because it is conditional on what you are comfortable with. It doesn't matter what you are comfortable with. It doesn't matter what I am comfortable with. What matters is what God says.

What God left for us to find is also important. Being created in God's image so that we can study and marvel at God's creation also matters.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Knock yourself out.

Nope. Genesis is historical narrative.

Darwinists will say anything to keep the discussion away from the evidence.

Can you show us the windows of the heavens that opened up?

 

[Stripe]

Can you show us the windows of the heavens that opened up?

Can you explain how these turtles got frozen in rock without water, sediment and cement acting in quick time?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Can you explain how these turtles got frozen in rock without water, sediment and cement acting in quick time?

The most common method of fossilization is called permineralization, or petrification. After an organism's soft tissues decay in sediment, the hard parts — particularly the bones — are left behind.
Water seeps into the remains, and minerals dissolved in the water seep into the spaces within the remains, where they form crystals. These crystallized minerals cause the remains to harden along with the encasing sedimentary rock.
- See more at: http://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html#sthash.ppYokHoj.dpuf

There. No "cement" required.

Your turn, where are the windows?

 

[patrick jane]

Because people like Stripe insist on Genesis being literal and I am just exploring the limits of what is literal and what is allegorical,

You're exploring the limits alright

 

[George Affleck]

What God left for us to find is also important. Being created in God's image so that we can study and marvel at God's creation also matters.

Well said.

The obvious question is, which has priority?

 

[6days]

Whether the world is 6000 or 60 billion years old, it does not change what Jesus did for us so that we could be with Him and His Father. That is Christian doctrine. The age of the Earth is not.

What really matters is that we believe what God tells us. Do you believe the genealogies and the 4000 years connecting first Adam to Last Adam? Do you believe that death entered the world through the sin of one man? Do you believe Jesus when He said that humans were made at the beginning of creation?
Can you answer yes to those questions.....or do you say "Yes, but..."

From the point of view of an observer on Earth, the order of the creation of light and the sun is in the correct order.

So you reject the order in which God tells us He created?

Physical death is not the worst thing that can happen. In fact, to be absent from the world is to be present with the Lord. Where would you rather be? Christ concurred spiritual death, the only death that matters as it separates us from God. Forever.

Your philosophy rejects what scripture tells us as to why Christ suffered physical death, shedding His blood for our sin.

 

[Alate_One]

Your philosophy rejects what scripture tells us as to why Christ suffered physical death, shedding His blood for our sin.

If Christ died to save us from physical death, then His mission was a failure since everyone still dies physically.

Spiritual death - separation from God, is the breach that Christ repaired.

Your philosophy is not scriptural and demeans the role of Christ.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You're exploring the limits alright

One of my favorite radio teachers used to say, "Know what you believe and why you believe it." I have come to understand over the years how important that simple sentiment is when talking to people who don't believe.

 

[Alate_One]

Well said.

The obvious question is, which has priority?

The obvious answer is the book that's directed towards the topic in question. If spiritual matters - holy scripture. If it's how the natural world works - the book of creation God has left behind.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well said.

The obvious question is, which has priority?

Wrong question. What Hod said and what God did are equally true.

 

[6days]

The most common method of fossilization is called permineralization, or petrification. After an organism's soft tissues decay in sediment, the hard parts — particularly the bones — are left behind. Water seeps into the remains, and minerals dissolved in the water seep into the spaces within the remains, where they form crystals. These crystallized minerals cause the remains to harden

Nice story, but it misses the point. Do we see leaves being covered in sediment and being fossilized today? How do jellyfish become fossilized? How are coal seams formed? Why do we see soft tissue fossilized so often? Why is soft tissue preserved in dinosaur bones? Why were turtles fossilized While 'doing it'?
The evidence worldwide is consistent with what we expect if God's Word is true.

 

[CabinetMaker]

What really matters is that we believe what God tells us. Do you believe the genealogies and the 4000 years connecting first Adam to Last Adam?

There are conflicting genealogies in scripture. I believe they are reasonably accurate.

Do you believe that death entered the world through the sin of one man?

Spiritual death. Separation from God.

Do you believe Jesus when He said that humans were made at the beginning of creation?

They were not. We were created on the 6th day, not the beginning. The end technically.

So you reject the order in which God tells us He created?

Not at all. The hypothesis of what an observer on Earth would witness watching the Big Bang lines up perfectly with what Genesis describes.

Your philosophy rejects what scripture tells us as to why Christ suffered physical death, shedding His blood for our sin.

You still die a physical death, won't you? Remember, God said that life is in the blood as what Christ did, had to do, is perfectly consistent with what his Father required.

 

[6days]

If Christ died to save us from physical death, then His mission was a failure since everyone still dies physically.

Spiritual death - separation from God, is the breach that Christ repaired.

Your philosophy is not scriptural and demeans the role of Christ.

Christ's physical death paid the penalty for for my spiritual death. Although I will physically die, I will join Him in the physical resurrection. Christ's mission was a success...He defeated physical and spiritual death.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Nice story, but it misses the point. Do we see leaves being covered in sediment and being fossilized today? How do jellyfish become fossilized? How are coal seams formed? Why do we see soft tissue fossilized so often? Why is soft tissue preserved in dinosaur bones? Why were turtles fossilized While 'doing it'?
The evidence worldwide is consistent with what we expect if God's Word is true.

Did you follow the link? You should. It describes many different types of fossilization and why some preserve soft tissue and other do not.

In a way we do see at least the start of the process. It is happening in river deltas, in the mud slides in California, volcanic eruptions that cover large areas with volcanic ash. I suspect that the reason we don't see very recent fossils is that the process actually takes a bit longer than some would have us believe.

The reason that turtles were fossilized in the act of mating has nothing to do with the method of fossilization and everything to do with how they died. What would kill turtles so quickly that they did not have time to seperate? Once dead, they sink to the bottom and fossilization commences from there.